Mystic theurge vs pure wizard/cleric

[IcyCool]

But, although he is a spell level behind (usually), he has a lot of versatility to make up for that.

True, and if he really wanted to go for it, he could go with druid instead of cleric for:

Druid 3
Wizard 3
Arcane Heirophant 10
Mystic Theurge 4

Giving him 9th level druid spells, 9th level wizard spells, wild shape as a 13th level druid, and the benefits of a 13th level druids animal companion and a 13th level wizards familiar in one creature.

 

[DM_Matt]

If you are willing to be neutral and use necro spells, True Necromancer is a more powerful wiz/cleric combo.

 

[Rkhet]

I agree with this if you are talking starting at level one, but here we are talking about starting at level 15.

We are. Depending on the game length, it mightn't reach 20. Even if it does, it mightn't go into epic. So the earlier levels - in this case, level 15, weighs more than level 20.

Notice how in your progression, the difference in spell levels is higher for the earlier levels, and only catches up on level 20.

 

[Lodow MoBo]

You guys are missing. it. The real power build, which I quite proud to have been declared the most broken combo by one of the DM's I play with. This is an accomplishment for our creative group my only use the core and complete books typically.

Warmage cleric mystic thurge

with feats spells and class features:

can wear medium armor and martial weapon with the war domain.
gain fighter bab with a single spell.

Cast a massive number of offensive spells.

Practiced spellcaster pushed the dmg dice up.

AT twelve he is powerful by fifteen he would be amazing.

His only weakness is low hit points. Improved toughness and con needed.

The Charisma and Wisdom combo is not as bad as the int wisdom one. There are a few ways to play the feats. practiced caster and battle caster is a must on the war mage.

 

[KarinsDad]

You guys are missing. it. The real power build, which I quite proud to have been declared the most broken combo by one of the DM's I play with. This is an accomplishment for our creative group my only use the core and complete books typically.

Warmage cleric mystic thurge

We didn't miss it, you just didn't read it from earlier.

If you want slightly more raw power, another possibility is Cleric 3 / War Mage 3 / Mystic Theurge 9. That lowers the arcane spells a little more, but adds in more raw damage and more versatility with respect to doing damage.

 

[KarinsDad]

We are. Depending on the game length, it mightn't reach 20. Even if it does, it mightn't go into epic. So the earlier levels - in this case, level 15, weighs more than level 20.

Notice how in your progression, the difference in spell levels is higher for the earlier levels, and only catches up on level 20.

While it is true that the difference is more pronounced at level 15, it is hardly devastatingly weak.

Plus, most campaigns last for more than a single level. Or even three levels.

Even at level 15 where you are two levels behind, the spells are (assuming an 18 stat for one class ability score and a 19 in the other, where the 18 will become 19 at level 16):

06/07/07/07/6/5/4/3/2 15 Cleric
04/05/05/05/5/4/3/2/1 15 Wizard
05/06/06/06/6/5/4/3/2 15 Specialized Wizard

10/12/11/10/8/5/2/0/0 Cleric 3/Wizard 3/MysticTheurge 9
11/13/12/11/9/6/3/0/0 Cleric 3/Specialized Wizard 3/MysticTheurge 9

If you consider this to be a Cleric with some offensive spells, you are giving up at most 2 6th, 3 7th, and 2 8th level spells (which granted can be very potent) for 14 lower level spells and the ability to both spontaneously heal and cast offensive spells. Your caster level is the same if you take Practiced Spellcaster (and who wouldn't?).

Due to the lower BAB, hit dice, saves (except Will), and lack of armor, you really have to consider this character a Wizard who can heal himself (as opposed to a Cleric who can cast offensive spells since he cannot fill the role of a normal front line Cleric) which means you are giving up 4 high level spells (1 6th, 2 7th, and 1 8th) for 22 lower level ones and basically the ability to have virtually every spell that you might possibly need (Lesser Restoration, Neutralize Poison, Globe of Invulnerability, etc.) virtually every day. That amount of versatility is huge. You need all of your first level Wizard spell slots for other things, you put Protection From Evil into a Clerical first level spell slot.

I played a MT (Druid / Sorcerer) once and enjoyed it immensely just due the fact that I basically had a spell for nearly every situation.

And when prepped ahead of time, a divine / arcane character is defensively hard to beat. They have so many ways to protect and buff themselves it's scary. Your 15 Wizard does not have a Spell Resistance spell, no problem. The MT does. Your 15 Cleric does not have a Stoneskin spell, no problem. The MT does. Clerics cannot cast Cat's Grace, no problem. The MT can.

 

[brehobit]

*If* you are playing a high stats game, a warmage/cleric/MT is hugely powerful. Take the cleric levels first though (otherwise you are stuck as a level 3 warmage for 3 levels with no 2nd level spells in any class until 6th level!)

But with even a 32-point point-buy you will be very tight with needing high scores in all 3 mental stats to be reasonably effective.
S10, I14, W14, D10, C14, Ch16 is 32 points.

If you are playing a 25 point game, the combo becomes really hard to keep effective.

 

[Merlion]

My whole deal with the Mystic Theurge thing is this: Mages should already be able to cast many of the spells you'd want from the Cleric side anyway (Spell Resistance, Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Find the Path etc).

 

[boolean]

If you want slightly more raw power, another possibility is Cleric 3 / War Mage 3 / Mystic Theurge 9. That lowers the arcane spells a little more, but adds in more raw damage and more versatility with respect to doing damage. Plus, you gain an alternating higher level of spells each level (cleric at 16, war mage at 17, cleric at 18, etc., so you are gaining new spells every level) and you can wear a mythral breastplate and still cast your arcane spells.

Just pointing out that a Warmage doesn't get second level spells until fourth level. As second level spells of both types is one of the prerequisites for Mystic Theurge, the minimum at 15th level is Cleric 3 / Warmage 4 / Mystic Theurge 8.

Which means the character will always be two spell levels behind a single class wizard/cleric of the same level, where a Clr3/Wiz3/MyTh9 is sometimes only one level behind.

 

[nittanytbone]

I've never played one but MTs seem to have some significant liabilities.

You basically throw away all your cleric benefits: High hit points get watered down by unimpressive MT hit dice, you lose out on at least a spell level, turn undead becomes relatively useless, and you're not going to making good use of armor.

Many of your wizard benefits also get lost, especially bonus feats and those higher spell levels. You also miss out on the open wizard class skill list; MTs are quite restricted in what skills they can use.

I think a better solution would be to be a cleric with one level of sorcerer or an arcane caster that front-loaded cleric.

Cleric with one level of sorcerer: Clerics and sorcerers both need good charisma, so sorcerer is a natural combination. If you pick your two spells carefully (flare, true strike. hold portal, and featherfall all require no somatic component, so you can use them in heavy armor) and rely on wands, staves, and scrolls, you should be able to gain a good degree of flexibility. Additionally, you can pick up a few ranks in bluff as a sorcerer which grants nice social synergies. Picking a domain such as "fire" can give you access to some of the flashier damage spells like burning hands.

Arcane with one level of cleric: If you front-load cleric, then you gain 4 extra hit points and access to a few different skills. You also pick up at least three spells a day and if you pick domains that are useful even if you have a low cleric level such as Luck and War then you're in business. The ability to wear armor can be useful, especially if you invest in mithril gear and accept a small chance of spell failure. Judicious use of spell-trigger items as before gives you a lot of flexibility.