Natural Attack + Monk

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

YOU think the FAQ is incorrect. However, unless the FAQ states otherwise, it is the correct version. It is the rules put forth by the makers of the game (or at least, as close to it as you can get). Thus, it takes precedence over what YOU think.

Right. Does it take precedence over what the PHB says?

Also, you didn't answer my question. I'll repost it:

Furthermore:

1. Anything that contradicts an "Official" source is a House Rule.
2. PoE contradicts an Official source.
3. Therefore, PoE is positing a House Rule.

Agree?

Unless you are claiming to be Gary Gygax?

Of course not. He posts here (well, not here, he doesn't care for the current trend in gaming whereby the rules actually mean things apart from what the DM says they mean; you can find him in General Discussion, however) under the name Col_Pladoh.

The problem here is you refusing to see that you have NO STANDING WHATSOEVER.

Oh, I get it. This is all about me and my delusions of grandeur. Oh, if only I were an actual WotC employeem with a shiny badge on my chest! It's all so clear now! Thanks, Dr ... Wait? Are you a doctor? A psychiatrist? A psychologist? No?

Then don't psychoanalyse and tell me what I refuse to see.

As far as "NO STANDING WHATSOEVER," I disagree. I've got exactly as much standing - and as much right - to my opinions on the rules as anyone else on this board - yourself included.

You are not the FAQ, you are not an official source, and you are definitely not God.

Then why the hell have I been answering all those prayers recently, huh? Answer that, smartguy!!

Get over yourself.

Thank you again, Dr ... ?

Anything you say that contradicts the FAQ or sourcebooks is a House Rule. The FAQ clarified a murky part of the sourcebook. That is all.

So, anything that contradicts the FAQ or sourcebook is a House Rule, huh?

Care to clarify that this is what you actually mean?

 

[Caeleddin]

Yes. This is about your attitude. Funny how you missed the part where I said I agree that the Monk and TWF is begging for a House Rule nerfing in your anxiety to be the injured martyr.

The FAQ said one thing. You said it is wrong.
Einstien came up with the Theory of Relativity. You say he is wrong.

Same difference.

Who do I listen to? Not you in either case. It is as simple as that.

Anything else you have written in the above post is irrelevant. You tried to be smart; instead it just showed your immaturity. Smart people have doubts. Immature brats think they are God. Your above post puts you in the latter category.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Stop bickering, kids.

The argument's an old one, but it's been carried out before without devolving into squabbling... so there's no excuse for getting snarky.

-Hyp.
(Moderator)

 

[Hypersmurf]

The FAQ said one thing. You said it is wrong.

To be fair, it's not uncommon for the FAQ to say things which are demonstrably unsupported or even in direct contradiction to the rules... or even to itself.

There are cases in the FAQ where one answer contradicts another. There have even been cases where two sentences in the same answer have said opposite things.

-Hyp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Yes. This is about your attitude. Funny how you missed the part where I said I agree that the Monk and TWF is begging for a House Rule nerfing in your anxiety to be the injured martyr.

*cough* It only needs a house rule if the FAQ is *right* ...

I still posited a question for you. Can't you just answer it?

You tried to be smart; instead it just showed your immaturity. Smart people have doubts. Immature brats think they are God. Your above post puts you in the latter category.

Right. I think I'm God. Obviously. And I'm the immature one.

I don't think you're going to answer my question for you. So, I'll post the follow-up.

So, given that the FAQ, as an Official Source, is not a House Rule, and anything that contradicts an Official Source *IS* a House Rule, what do you say to the following juxtaposition?

Q: Earlier, you talked about Bob the fighter, who was unconscious and later woke up, prone, to find Grog the orc standing in his space. You said Bob has to stay prone so long as he remained in Grog’s space, and that Bob would provoke an attack of opportunity upon leaving that space. Suppose Bob made a grapple attack on Grog? He can grapple Grog, can’t he? Bob would be at a negative for being prone but would not provoke an attack of opportunity, would he? Assuming Bob establishes a hold on Grog, how long does the prone penalty last?


A:Sure, Bob can grapple Grog. Bob’s initial grab attack provokes an attack of opportunity from Grog unless Bob has the Improved Grapple feat or some other circumstance prevents Grog from threatening Bob. (For example, Grog would not threaten Bob if Grog were wielding a reach weapon.) If Grog deals damage to Bob with an attack of opportunity, Bob’s grapple attempt is over. If Grog doesn’t damage Bob, Bob’s initial touch attack would suffer a –4 penalty for being prone. If the grab succeeds, Bob is still prone and still suffers the –4 enalty for being prone for the ensuing opposed grapple check. (Some DMs I know would give Bob an offsetting bonus for being able to wrap himself around Grog’s ankles, but I don’t recommend doing so; it’s pretty easy to kick loose from somebody lying on the ground when you’re standing up).

If Bob gets a hold on Grog, he normally would have to move into Grog’s space to maintain the hold. This movement would provoke attacks of opportunity from foes that threaten Bob. However, Bob is in Grog’s space already, so he doesn’t have to move to maintain the hold, and he is spared attacks of opportunity from Grog’s allies. You can move when grappling (see page 156 in the Player’s Handbook). Normally you drag foes along with you when you move during grappling, but there’s no reason why Bob can’t just use a move action to stand up in Grog’s space once he has hold of Grog. Bob has to win an opposed grapple check against Grog (still at –4 for being prone) to stand up.

This doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity from Grog (who doesn’t threaten Bob or anyone else while grappling), but it does from Grog’s allies if they threaten Bob (see page 143 in the Player’s Handbook). Once on his feet, Bob can keep grappling without the prone penalty, or just let Grog go. If Bob lets go, he can leave Grog’s space with a 5-foot step and not provoke any attacks of opportunity. (Getting up is a move action, but its not “movement” for purposes of taking a 5-foot step because Bob isn’t actually moving any distance, see page 144 in the Player’s Handbook).

And ...

Q: I have a monk with the Vow of Poverty feat (from Book of Exalted Deeds). Does the exalted strike bonus apply to grapple, sunder, disarm, and trip attempts?

A: The exalted strike bonus gained by a character who has taken Vow of Poverty applies only on attack and damage rolls. Unless something is described as an attack roll or a damage roll, the bonus doesn’t apply.

• The touch attack made to start a grapple is an attack roll (so the bonus would apply to this roll), but a grapple check is not an attack roll, and thus the bonus wouldn’t apply to the grapple check. Likewise, the touch attack made to start a trip attack would gain the bonus, but the Strength check you make to trip the defender is not an attack roll and wouldn’t gain the bonus.
• To attempt a disarm attack or a sunder attack, you make an attack roll opposed by the defender’s attack roll, so the exalted strike bonus would apply.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I'll assume you started that post before seeing my throat-clearing above, Patryn...

-Hyp.
(Moderator)

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Better?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Better?

A little.

I'm quite fond of p42:

Acid, sonic, and force attacks ignore hardness. Hardness
applies to cold, electricity, and fire attacks.​

contrasted with p32:

• Hardness applies to acid and sonic attacks. These attacks deal
normal damage both to creatures and to objects, and thus would
deal normal damage to an animated object (less the effect of the
hardness). You would subtract 5 points for hardness from
whatever damage a Melf's acid arrow spell deals to the
animated table in your example.

• Hardness applies to force attacks. These attacks deal normal
damage both to creatures and to objects (when applicable), and
thus would deal normal damage to an animated object (less the
effect of the hardness). You would subtract 5 points for
hardness from whatever damage a magic missile spell deals to
the animated table in your example. A magic missile spell
normally cannot be aimed at an object. Because an animated
object is a creature, however, it can affect the animated table in
the example.​

and p44:

Damage reduction doesn’t reduce acid damage (the way hardness does).​

But my favourite is p37:

When you use shapechange (or related magic) to assume
another creature’s form, your Hit Dice are considered to be the
same as your normal Hit Dice.

For example, an 18th-level human sorcerer shapechanged
into a dire bear would be treated as a 12-HD creature (and not
an 18-HD creature) for the purpose of determining what effect
an evil cleric's blasphemy spell might have upon him.​

-Hyp.

 

[Hof]

A bit off topic I'm afraid, but I have a tangent question:

Do all a characters attacks in a Full Attack have to be made in order?

For example, can Bob the 16th level fighter choose to use his lowest attacks on the mook in front of some armored foe, use a 5ft. step over the corpse of said mook as it falls before him, and then use his remaining attacks at the corresponding higher bonus to have a better chance at hitting? And if not, why not?

This may also tie into the flurry with natural attacks issue, for if available attacks may be mixed and matched, then there can be no clear start/end to the flurry. (which i'm pretty sure cannot be combined, but I'll leave that discussion alone).

Hof.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Do all a characters attacks in a Full Attack have to be made in order?

Yes.

If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest.

However, you do have the option of making a single attack and determining the results of that attack before deciding whether or not to make a Full Attack (Full-Round Action) or a Single Attack (Standard Action).

Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack: After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out. If you’ve already taken a 5-foot step, you can’t use your move action to move any distance, but you could still use a different kind of move action.