Natural Attack + Monk

[JoeStock]

Nor am I. However, the monk rule cleary states that, when you flurry, you may only attack with unarmed strikes or monk weapons. If you attack with a natural weapon - whenever you choose to do it during the round -, you are attacking with something that is neither. Accordingly, it is not allowed with the Flurry.

The thing is, while it does make it clear natural wepaons cannot be part of the flurry, there's nothing about AFTER the flurry. Everything there talks about during the flurry. We do agree you can make natural weapon attacks after your base attacks, correct? Than where's the clear rule that says you can't use natural weapons in the same round you flurry, that flurry of blows takes up your entire attack? Yes it says you need to use the full attack action, but is silent that it REPLACES the full attack action.

That's the grey area where the Sage seems to get his ruling from and it's one I don't see something that clears it up. It would have been easy to fix, with three words, as I'll show here.

Originally Posted by SRD, Monk Class
A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.

When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack on this action only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus x1-1/2 or x1/2) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.

the bolded words are what I would add as a house rule to make it clear, but as written I don't think it is clear.

P.S. Thanks for the quote from the errata about which sources overrule which. I'll print that up and save it for next time one of my rule lawyer players try to hit me with stuff from the Sage.

 

[Funkthis]

Boy have I been doing this wrong

Excellent thread guys! My Half-Dragon Monk would like to thank you immensely. My GM (and myself included) thought I would only get my bite attack when using my normal monk attack and we both came to the same conclusion as Patryn regarding the flurry.

Now I'll have to number crunch to figure out when/if flurrying and losing my 3 natural attacks is a good thing. On top of that I now know what feat he needs next lvl....Multiattack

 

[glass]

Of course this IS overpowered and certainly worthy of a house rule. You might not have a high opinion of the sage or the FAQ, but Wizards is the maker of the game and thus the rule readings are considered by most players/gms as official.

Wizards can certainly make official changes to the rules, in the errata. If the FAQ contradicts the rules, however, it's not an official change, it's a mistake.


glass.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The thing is, while it does make it clear natural wepaons cannot be part of the flurry, there's nothing about AFTER the flurry.

By a similar logic, I can use Flurry of Blows and then attack with a great sword - so long as I do it "after the flurry."

We do agree you can make natural weapon attacks after your base attacks, correct?

So long as you are using the Full Attack action and aren't Flurrying, yes.

Than where's the clear rule that says you can't use natural weapons in the same round you flurry, that flurry of blows takes up your entire attack? Yes it says you need to use the full attack action, but is silent that it REPLACES the full attack action.

It doesn't replace the Full Attack action. It places restrictions upon it - just like Whirlwind Attack does.

When Flurrying you must:

1. Use the Full Attack action.
2. Use only unarmed strikes or special monk weapons.

There really isn't as much wiggle room as you think there is.

In order to use unarmed attacks and attacks from natural weapons, you must:

1. Use the Full Attack action.

Now, I can only use the Full Attack action once per round. If I use it and Flurry, then all the restrictions of Flurry apply to this Full Attack action.

P.S. Thanks for the quote from the errata about which sources overrule which. I'll print that up and save it for next time one of my rule lawyer players try to hit me with stuff from the Sage.

No problem!

 

[apesamongus]

By a similar logic, I can use Flurry of Blows and then attack with a great sword - so long as I do it "after the flurry."

Possibly. You would just need to define when, exactly, the flurry begins and ends.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Possibly.

Riiiiiighty-oh.

You would just need to define when, exactly, the flurry begins and ends.

The flurry begins and ends with the Full Attack action, just like Whirlwind Attack begins and ends with the Full Attack action.

 

[BalazarIago]

My head hurts.

 

[JoeStock]

By a similar logic, I can use Flurry of Blows and then attack with a great sword - so long as I do it "after the flurry."

And that goes to show it is a stupid interpetion of the rules. Normally I would just laugh at a player who makes it. But the annoying part is by putting it on their website in an "official" FAQ, it gives it crediablity.

It doesn't replace the Full Attack action. It places restrictions upon it - just like Whirlwind Attack does.

Whirlwind attack is written better. It makes it very clear, as you can see from the SRD:

When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

Compare that with this mess:

When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a –2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to –1, and at 9th level it disappears. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.

When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus x 1-1/2 or x 1/2) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.

In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.

When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.

While it IS made clear you take -2 penatly on all attacks that round, it's less clear that all attacks that round must also take the restrictions listed.


In the end, I think the only source of disagreement we have is that I think the rules are poorly wirtten in this case and you read them as being clearer than I do.


Anyway, it's been fun. Now you have a taste of what I deal with on a too regular basis. :-(

 

[BalazarIago]

My reading of the rules for Furry sounds like the restrictions only apply for when you are using Furry. It indicates that when using Furry of Blows, that they are restricted to what they can use. The rest of the round would be unrestricted.

Regardless, it sounds pretty nasty if a character attacks with Furry of blows, 2 claw attacks and a bite attack.

 

[Infiniti2000]

(Humor only)

Only a werewolf monk can use Furry of Blows. All other monks flurry.