Natural Bond - Overpowered?

[Gregor]

Hey everyone,

I am currently running a group of players through the Savage Tide AP. One of my players is bringing in an 11th level druid. He is selecting a Deinonychus (raptor) as his animal companion (which is fine). However, he also wants to take the Natural Bond feat from complete adventurer, which increases his druid level by +3 for the purposes of his animal companion's abilities. Before the feat, he would have been considered a level 5 druid. After the feat, he is considered a level 8 druid.

I could go into the details, but in summary the feat will greatly empower the raptor in terms of AC, hit die, BAB and with feats selected as a result of its advancement (i.e. improved natural attack), its damage output increases. In short the raptor will have an average of around 70hp, 5 attacks a round, pounce, an AC of 22, etc.

Im worried that this feat will make the raptor strong enough to outshine some of the other party members (we have a human monk, halfling rogue and human barbarian). Moreover, the druid only needs to gain 3 more levels for the raptor to gain multi-attack, (as opposed to 6 more levels if he doesnt take the feat) which will also greatly boost its performance.

Does anyone here have any experience with this feat? Am I worried over nothing? Is this feat too powerful in the hands of a straight classed druid (i.e. is it designed for multi-classed characters or rangers)?

Any and all help would be appreciated.

 

[Darklone]

IMX, a well built fightertype with the right equipment should be able to outshine the raptor. The raptor has a pretty negligible bonus to hit for most of his attacks... he's strong but far from overpowered. Multiattack helps a bit here though...

If the druid boosts him a lot with spells, you should compare the raptor to a full buffed fighter if the fighter seems to be too weak.

 

[Crazy Eights]

I don't have the book in front of me at the moment, but as I recall, the Natural Bond feat adds three levels to your effective druid level for animal companion, but only up to a maximum of your character level, so a straight druid wouldn't gain any benefit from the feat. I don't think you can use the feat to offset the penalty to level from more powerful animal companions, though I could be wrong.

As far as the raptor overshadowing your other PCs, well, if the druid in question is 11th level, then I assume the other PCs are as well. At that level, I don't see the raptor as being more powerful than the other PCs, even if it is benefiting from the Natural Bond feat. As always, YMMV.

~CE

 

[Ender_rpm]

If he's buffing the critter, hes not slinging damage spells, so its really moot. What are his other class levels? Drd5/ ?? 6? And with those stats, in my game anyway, the raptor might last a round or 2 in close combat. Now, as a mount.....

 

[Plane Sailing]

Im worried that this feat will make the raptor strong enough to outshine some of the other party members (we have a human monk, halfling rogue and human barbarian). Moreover, the druid only needs to gain 3 more levels for the raptor to gain multi-attack, (as opposed to 6 more levels if he doesnt take the feat) which will also greatly boost its performance.

This seems the key element to me. If you as the DM think that it will allow the companion to overshadow the other players, then you save a lot of problems if you disallow it. I'd always consider very carefully a players request for a non-core feat, and I tend to err on the side of caution. If he had a wolf or something similar, there might not be a problem - but anything with pounce makes for a tough critter at the best of times (e.g. Tiger) - I'd be worried about this critter too and probably say 'sorry, no'.

If you find the player says 'fine, OK' then there might not have been any problem, and you could open up the possibility of the feat for them when they reach 12th level, having seen how the adventure has been playing with it as-is. If they pout and complain then they may already have been thinking about the powergaming angle and that could confirm a decision to say no.

That's my perspective.

 

[Slaved]

If you feel that the feat gives too much then explain your qualms to the player and work something out.

It looks like the feat will give the raptor these bonuses....
+17 hit points on average
+2 natural armor boost
+2 base attack bonus
+1 fortitude save
+1 reflex save
Devotion

I believe that is everything. That still leaves the druids pet at a willpower save +2 but at least it gets an extra +4 bonus to that save against enchantments.

 

[nittanytbone]

Is it legal? I think so.

Is the feat overpowered in this case? Well, druids are the BEST class in the game by far from a power perspective, so anything that buffs them further gets kind of crazy. I would speak with the player about my concerns in an OOC context and try to come to some middle of the road agreement.

On the other hand, there is some fault to be had with the other players for building sucky characters. While not everyone is equal at building powerful characters, I think there should be some reward for canny players who make smart choices with feats, classes, etc. If the fighter feels overshadowed, I'd allow some PHB2 retraining to go on so he can make himself suck less.

PS - The raptor gains HD, and thus feats, so the clever druid player should select some key feats, like, oh, Iron Will!

 

[matthewajg]

Seems to me that as a Feat, it is far less powerful or unbalancing as Leadership.

 

[Gregor]

This seems the key element to me. If you as the DM think that it will allow the companion to overshadow the other players, then you save a lot of problems if you disallow it. I'd always consider very carefully a players request for a non-core feat, and I tend to err on the side of caution. If he had a wolf or something similar, there might not be a problem - but anything with pounce makes for a tough critter at the best of times (e.g. Tiger) - I'd be worried about this critter too and probably say 'sorry, no'.

If you find the player says 'fine, OK' then there might not have been any problem, and you could open up the possibility of the feat for them when they reach 12th level, having seen how the adventure has been playing with it as-is. If they pout and complain then they may already have been thinking about the powergaming angle and that could confirm a decision to say no.

That's my perspective.

I agree.

Im not too worried about the player complaining, since he himself said he wanted to make sure that the raptor doesnt get too tough.

Part of me wants to let him take the feat so that we can actually playtest it and see how it performs. The other part of me thinks that this feat allows a druid to mitigate a fair amount of the penalty they chose to take by selecting a tougher animal companion (i.e. having a lower effective druid level for its abilities) and will result in one player having a disproportionate amount of power at the table.

Ultimately, my concern stems from my lack of DMing experience at these levels, so maybe, as you state Plane Sailing, I should err on the side of caution.

Any other advice out there?

 

[Gregor]

On the other hand, there is some fault to be had with the other players for building sucky characters. While not everyone is equal at building powerful characters, I think there should be some reward for canny players who make smart choices with feats, classes, etc. If the fighter feels overshadowed, I'd allow some PHB2 retraining to go on so he can make himself suck less.

I dont think this is the issue for my group. Most of the characters are fairly well built and they perform just fine (in a paizo AP...thats saying something).

I think I should have framed my problem as trying to avoid the Druid establishing a disproportionate amount of power at the table (already most powerful class as you state, plus a beefed up companion) and not so much about the raptor itself.

However, I do see what you're saying.