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D&D General Nature Clerics vs. Druids?

Chaosmancer

Legend
I can't speak for Zard but I do and did see pushback against power sources from DMs who want the classes very generic. This way they can reflavor anything as anything.

Which is good for DMs. But bad for players, designers, and game publishers.

Personally, I wouldn't even see it as good for DMs.

I think I mentioned it already, but I am 100% fine disconnecting Power Sources from classes. I do not need to say that all wizards are Arcane Casters.

But, I do like the ability to say that Arcane Magic exists, and is a way that the class could work.


Before 4e, Druids and Rangers were divine casters. They used the magic of the gods. And this bothers me, because Druids just being a different type of cleric and Rangers just being a different type of Paladin does not work. It breaks things for me in a way that makes world-building difficult, because if I did not make them Divine, then my only other option was Arcane, and they aren't wizards either.

Primal gave me an out. Reading that for the first time blew my mind and opened the door for how I could arrange those three classes and position them inside of the framework of magic. It made my life as a DM so much easier, and I now have a much better framework for things (Bards being the only exception, but I'm still toying with them)

So, if the problem is you don't want to say that all Wizards are Arcane and all Druids are Primal and all Clerics are Divine.... fine, don't say that. You can mix and match them. But, the concept of there being a third way, a third type of magic that could fit these classes that otherwise did not have a very good place in the theory of magic, that is too useful for me to abandon.

Primal Magic is the magic of the World and Spirits.
Divine Magic is the magic of Faith and communities.
Arcane magic is the fundamental math of the universe, the power of the strings of reality that hold it all up.

This works for me. And I don't need to chain classes to a short leash within those bounds. I just want those general areas to exist and interact.
 

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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
So, if the problem is you don't want to say that all Wizards are Arcane and all Druids are Primal and all Clerics are Divine.... fine, don't say that. You can mix and match them. But, the concept of there being a third way, a third type of magic that could fit these classes that otherwise did not have a very good place in the theory of magic, that is too useful for me to abandon.

Primal Magic is the magic of the World and Spirits.
Divine Magic is the magic of Faith and communities.
Arcane magic is the fundamental math of the universe, the power of the strings of reality that hold it all up.

This works for me. And I don't need to chain classes to a short leash within those bounds. I just want those general areas to exist and interact.

My home setting has over 7 power sources but that's besides the point.

But there's no reason to straightjacket like you said.

A Nature Clerics can be Divine and Primal. A Knowledge Cleric could be Divine and Arcane.

A Land Druid or Shepherd Druid could be D & P as well. Whereas a Moon Druid could be pure Primal.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Then why declare Primal needs to die? You couldn't care less how things work, so why do you hate an explanation on how things work? It doesn't change anything for how you run things. Fireball still does 8d6 damage.

I'm just legitimately confused what your problem is with the term, especially given this almost militant level of disinterest in the rest of the power sources.

I just think it's a stupid label and Druids could be powered by multiple things and show horning it into primal is stupid.

Some Druids could be powered by it yes, or Divine, or elemental, or nature spirits, a patron or whatever. Same with clerics, sorcerer's, wizards of whatever.

If a DM said Druids are primal casters I wouldn't care.

If they started preaching on the forums about all Druids are primal casters there's your problems.

Alot of arguements here haven't been a thing since 2E with godless clerics etc.


Then you get stupid takes like 4E Darksun saying no clerics in Athas because no divine source exists despite the fact the Athasian clerics weren't powered by the divine anyway.

If someone in my games wants there Druid to worship a nature God no problem. Player two wants a Druid no god that's fine and sane for the nature clerics.

I only require a vaguely plausible power source so your cleric can't draw power from your pet cat but can draw power from some mystical power source that the details don't matter to much.
 

Wasteland Knight

Adventurer
Hi everyone.

In one of my games, I have a Nature Cleric. I'm curious what everyone feels like the story and world difference is between a Nature Cleric and a Druid. I'll save my answer for later.
In my games, generally it's broken out as Nature Clerics are more concerned with harvests, agriculture, animal husbandry, etc. and Druids are all about the wild places. This is mostly just to provide some clear delineation, and is simply one take. I suppose from an outlook and responsibilities perspective, they could be one and the same.
 

Xeviat

Hero
In my games, generally it's broken out as Nature Clerics are more concerned with harvests, agriculture, animal husbandry, etc. and Druids are all about the wild places. This is mostly just to provide some clear delineation, and is simply one take. I suppose from an outlook and responsibilities perspective, they could be one and the same.

I like that. Nature clerics are concerned with how civilization interacts with nature. Druids are concerned with the wild parts of nature.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
I just think it's a stupid label and Druids could be powered by multiple things and show horning it into primal is stupid.

Some Druids could be powered by it yes, or Divine, or elemental, or nature spirits, a patron or whatever. Same with clerics, sorcerer's, wizards of whatever.

Elemental and nature spirits are Primal. You are literally saying that Primal is a stupid power source, they could just draw their power from nature (ie exactly what the primal power source is)

If a DM said Druids are primal casters I wouldn't care.

If they started preaching on the forums about all Druids are primal casters there's your problems.

Alot of arguements here haven't been a thing since 2E with godless clerics etc.

Obviously you do care. I mentioned I liked the inclusion of Primal as a power source. I didn't even say "all druids are primal casters by the iron laws of canon" or anything like that. I said I liked it, because it solves a problem I had.

And you hate it, and won't stop telling me you hate it, and that it is stupid, and needs to disappear because.... reasons?

Sure, Godless clerics are a thing. They are also the exception to the rule, much like a Veggie Burger. They exist, some people use them, but if I ask for a burger, I'm likely asking for a ground beef patty. That is the norm, the standard.

Then you get stupid takes like 4E Darksun saying no clerics in Athas because no divine source exists despite the fact the Athasian clerics weren't powered by the divine anyway.

See, I prefer 4e's take on that. Sure, in 2e you had clerics powered by the Elemental forces, but, that was also the edition where Druids were a "kit" of Clerics (If I have my editions correct) so they had to allow some clerics in 2e, because Druids made too much sense in a story about the destructiion of the environment.

But by 4e, Druids and Clerics were distinct enough, and the place of "we need a healer" was covered well enough, there was no reason to keep Clerics at all for Athas. Well, except tradition, but that is a poor reason by itself.

And since they had defined "Primal" as being separate from Divine, and "Elemental Forces" were clearly Primal Sources, it made more thematic sense to cut off Divine and rely on the other sources, than to somehow start rewriting things within 4e.



But beyond all that... you have not made a single concise point this entire time. You have declared it is stupid, because Druids could be powered by anything, and it doesn't matter, because it could be anything, but primal was definetly stupid... and it all seems to come back to a dislike of 4e on general principles. Which, that's fair man, I'm not here to tell you you have to like 4e. You can go on hating it as much as you want, but I have often found that 4e had some nuggets of brilliance in the design. There were rules and aspects of it that were very useful and deserve to be preserved. And hating things because you hate them, and that's it, doesn't give you a chance to listen to why it might have been a decent idea.

Primal is literally just taking the idea of magic based on elemental forces, nature spirits, fey, totems, ect, and giving it a name. It is not the same type of power as the power of a God or a Church, it is not the same as a wizard studying in his tower. Maybe you don't like the name, but for me, putting those things in their own group, by pointing out a path I could take and design around, it improved my game and my thinking about magic.

Even if you think it is stupid.
 

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
In 4e, the elements weren't a direct part of the primal power source, it was separate and tapped into by different power sources. Primal was just the spirits of the prime plane.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Nah. Far far from the dumbest. If anything, it was a great idea that helped bring much-needed conceptual clarity to the classes. It's why they made great choices in 4E Darksun that outshone the original 2E setting. Power sources were great for tying the classes into the core concepts, themes, and magic of the D&D universe, and they should be brought back.

I completely disagree. I never played any previous editions, but I love the power sources. It just makes sense to differentiate the classes.

Your problem isn't with power sources. Your problem is how 4e used power sources. The 4e design team was too strict in making every base class use one power source and stick to one role. In D&D many classes are multi-source and multi-role in archetypical mechanics.
Debating Zardnaar about anything 4e-related is pointless, as Chaosmancer said. Zardnaar fervently dislikes nearly everything 4e. As for my own two* coppers:

I hated mixed-source classes. Still do. "Power source" is descriptive so it can be useful. Some difference exists between Cleric and Wizard beyond names. That matters for both design (e.g. effects balanced for Divine chars generally, but not for ALL CHARS EVAR) and for player aids (e.g. Primal-focused picks should be better than generic ones for Primal classes). Casually discarding those benefits is foolish!

A main beef with sources was the insulting term "grid filling." E.g., accusing the designers of creating classes ONLY to "fill spots on the grid," lacking other reason or merit. But this never happened. Consider the (aforementioned) Shaman, or the Avenger, personal favorites, which did new, interesting, and flavorful things beyond "grid filling."

Shamans existed in 3.x, but 4e's version is pretty distinct. It followed Druid by being Primal; however, but was far more spiritual, arguably the most spiritual 4e class. It even summoned a spirit-ally, but spirits saturate its fluff AND crunch. Many Shaman actions conjure temporary ally spirits, or employ the Shaman's spirit companion. The flavor of both the class and the world developed this further.

The other main Primal classes all take at least a somewhat instrumental view of the Primal Spirits. All Primal classes revere them, sure. But Warden, Barbarian, and Druid were using that power, not for the spirits, but for something else. Wardens channeled spirits into their bodies, Barbarians entered altered states of consciousness. Both achieved a kind of transcendental union with the spirits to do things. Druids could clothe themselves with animal form, again for some other goal. But the Shaman asked the spirits themselves to join in. Not to donate some of their power for personal use, merge with the Shaman, nor permit mind or body emulation thereof. Shamans treat spirits as equals, walking with one foot always in their world. That's huge for me, and something I've relied on since. That Druids are about the Eternal Now and the Living Cycle, and Shamans are about the Moments of Transition and Unending Journey. Two sides, one coin.

As for the Avenger? Just need one name to justify it: Assassin's Creed. The "holy killer" is not new, and fits well into pseudo-medievalism, especially as we expand that to include the influence of Golden Age Islam on the Medieval Period. We've just been blind to it because "divine magic is for healing and support." AKA: designers were blind to a (narrative and historical!) archetype purely because a box didn't exist for it! The Avenger also had the trial run for Advantage as its key damage benefit. And it did so while covering a very real, and very long-neglected, narrative hole in the relationship between the gods and their mortal agents: how the gods deal with betrayal.

Mortal betrayal of godly trust is hardly new (we've had the Blackguard since, what, 2e?) But the only tool to address such behavior was a problematic one: pulling the plug. In the wake of 3.x, most agreed plug pulling had...flaws. It tacitly encouraged unhealthy DM/player relationships, and made many interesting plots (like gods changing their minds or internecine warfare) nearly impossible. 4e's Investiture idea fixed these problems, but left a hole. (5e's silence on the subject is...well, I guess a "solution," in the sense that "I dunno, you figure it out" is a solution to anything...)

The Avenger fills the remaining gap, by articulating what the gods do when someone betrays their trust. They send in the hit squad, the divine Internal Affairs. That's such a cool idea! It says a great deal about the gods (that they must be very cautious with who they give their powers to, that they seek high loyalty in general and especially high loyalty from their Avengers, that they consider the possibility of betrayal and plan accordingly, etc.), it creates new and interesting scenarios for both player-fuelled stories (hunting down heretics or BEING the hunted heretic!) and for DM-provided ones ("a traitor to the faith of Lolth wants your help fighting off Lolthian Avengers come to kill him!" or the like).

So yeah. TL;DR: "Grid filling" is not only false, but the only thing even like it actually resulted in really cool new ideas. And mixed-source classes sacrifice a clear benefit from both design AND play-experience...typically for meta-aesthetic reasons that do not actually help make a better game.

*In this case, two coppers buys you a lot of words. I'm generous like that. ;)

Watch the language, please.
 
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Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer
So yeah. TL;DR: "Grid filling" is not only false, but the only thing even like it actually resulted in really cool new ideas. And mixed-source classes sacrifice a clear benefit from both design AND play-experience...typically for meta-aesthetic reasons that do not actually help make a better game.
I love "grid-filling." I mean, I don't like making classes just for the point of filling in grids of unnecessary classes, but I do love theory-crafting classes to find niches that aren't filled, and if they can be created with a subclass, I create it. It's one of the easiest ways for me to brainstorm classes/subclasses in D&D that don't already exist.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Debating Zardnaar about anything 4e-related is pointless, as Chaosmancer said. Zardnaar fervently dislikes nearly everything 4e. As for my own two* coppers:

I didn't reallywant to debate Zardnaar.I just wanted to mention how one of the big criticism ofmany editions of D&D is that some don't want the game's flavor explained. A lot of people are in the "leave it blank and I'll write it" camp and dislike the "Create a default and I'll rewrite it" idea.

So yeah. TL;DR: "Grid filling" is not only false, but the only thing even like it actually resulted in really cool new ideas. And mixed-source classes sacrifice a clear benefit from both design AND play-experience...typically for meta-aesthetic reasons that do not actually help make a better game.

The "Grid filling" in the what was put in the grids is false. The created classes were interesting,added new flavors to narratives, and created new ways to play.

But no. Some classes are mixed source. The Ranger is a warrior who casts magic buffs on themselves and uses divination because it is a stealthy tracker and stalker who fights solo or in skrimish. That's Martial plus Divine, Arcane, or Primal depending on how you flavor them. Rangers are warriors who learn a little magic to overcome the dangers of their job and the fantastic elements of their quarries.

Paladins are Martial +Divine. Barbarians are Martial but can be Primal if you wish to make them supernatural and not pure bearshirts/wolfcoats/boarheads.

Mechanics matter. The Nature Cleric charms animals and plants because it is a man commanding nature. The Druid becomes a animal or plant because they are one with nature.. Classes should get the features that match what fits the flavor and not what justifies their existence.
 

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