D&D 5E Need a better houserule to fix Bladesinger's mechanics not supporting lore issue

[FormerlyHemlock]

I'd really like a better fighter/wizard hybrid, so I'm still hoping for the gestalt/hybrid rules that have been spoken of in the past to actually come out. But for now, I'm just going to discuss the Bladesinger on concept, and accept that they are squishy and lean heavily to the wizard side.

I wrote up my multiclassing rules. Have a look here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...-dirty-concurrent-multiclassing-gestalt-rules

These rules have not been playtested but they're informed by previous attempts that were playtested and disastrously failed (in the sense of providing insufficient reason not to multiclass). My powergamer instincts tell me that multiclassing under these rules is tempting but costly in both the long- and short-term; the decision is not a no-brainer. That's about where I'm aiming for but it might not be the same place you're aiming for.

Caveat emptor.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Isn't this exactly the way it worked in 2e though? They couldn't cast spells in any armor unless it was Elven Chain?

Elven chain wasn't technically a magic item either. Maybe that's too much of a quibble, but lower magic level of 5e (which I like) means a lot less elven chain floating around out there. And the spellcasting in armor element has been changed in general in 5e. Bladesingers in 5e can cast in studded leather. Put together, I think they ought to be able to cast in the closest non-magical equivalent to elven chain, which is the chain shirt. Otherwise they are going to build a Dex-based character who fights with a finesse weapon, and if they ever come across elven chain, even if I just let them use it with Bladesong, they would be better off wearing the studded leather they are already wearing due to the Dex max on medium armor...and they aren't going to want to use that magic longsword they found either because they have Dex rather than Strength.

So I'm not sure what Lore precedent you are trying to match by fixing this editions mechanics. If anything they have the same issues as before but now the added bonus of being able to cast in light armor.

I'm keeping the traditional feel and updating it to 5e sensibilities. For instance, I would never try to convert a previous edition element in such a way as to have a character that was proficient in armor but couldn't cast spells in it--that has no place in 5e. More relevantly, the finesse weapon mechanic means characters either go Dex or Str or Str with a little Dex if they are restricted to medium armor. That mechanical assumption needs to be respected in any update.

Well, this isn't backed up by what you're saying. You're pushing for a better gestalt version of a fighter mage but besides the HP total the Bladesinger gets the most relevant feature of all melee classes, Extra Attack. In this edition there is no Thac0 or BAB to mimic everyone get's the same proficiency attack bonus. There are no other iconic fighter features for you to gestalt your wizard with. Unless you want to take ALL the fighters features as well and get Third/Fourth Attack.

I addressed this on another thread, and I'll link you to the post to avoid dual-conversing.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?519848-Proposal-Fighter-mage-thief-quick-and-dirty-concurrent-multiclassing-gestalt-rules/page7&p=7011783&viewfull=1#post7011783

I think the real problem here is that you're trying to be good at everything and are suffering from MAD. You want good AC, attacks and spellcasting and are trying to tweak the class to reduce your MAD. I can see some of your concerns, but their the same concerns had by melee clerics, bladelocks, bards and every other hybrid class.

Not really. The character is still a heavily MAD class. They need an attack stat and a casting stat. That puts them on part with those other classes. However, if they are going to go Strength based attack (ie, longsword) they also need a tertiary Dexterity stat for AC, and they are really, really going to suffer. A Strength-based Bladesinger is unacceptably horribly gimped compared to a Dex-based version. If the only thing wrong with this picture was that longsword can't be wielded as a finesse weapon, I'd have just fixed it for them. But you get the elven chain, the chain shirt introduction, and the need to make it 5e appropriate, and that is where I refer you back to the OP to see how it all makes sense as not working.

 

[S'mon]

I do it thusly:

1. A 5e rapier is the equivalent of an older-edition longsword. A 5e longsword is a bastard sword.

2. Elven chain is AC 13 light armour, the equivalent of +1 studded.

 

[CapnZapp]

Not really. The character is still a heavily MAD class. They need an attack stat and a casting stat. That puts them on part with those other classes. However, if they are going to go Strength based attack (ie, longsword) they also need a tertiary Dexterity stat for AC, and they are really, really going to suffer. A Strength-based Bladesinger is unacceptably horribly gimped compared to a Dex-based version. If the only thing wrong with this picture was that longsword can't be wielded as a finesse weapon, I'd have just fixed it for them. But you get the elven chain, the chain shirt introduction, and the need to make it 5e appropriate, and that is where I refer you back to the OP to see how it all makes sense as not working.

I am still very confused.

Perhaps you should begin by defining what you consider an appropriate Bladesinger, and more specifically:
1) how much "martial" does it get?
2) how much "magical" does it get?
3) how does it spends it rounds?

For 1+2 you can answer by approximating the number of fighter and wizard levels respectively (for a level 20 Bladesinger).

For 3 I want to know if it regularly uses the "attack" action, the "cast spell" action or some variant thereof. I am also interested to know if there are any go-to cantrips you feel is essential to the build, and whether any bonus action will be regularly used (and if so, for what).

I'm asking this because I am confused when you say it's a heavily MAD class. Any class with access to 9th level spells can and will ignore martial weapons. Any class with access to close to full fighter abilities will only use magic to enhance martial abilities. I want you to define your ideal bladesinger on this scale between "martial" and "magical" before we can agree or disagree to your notions of MADness or not.

This specifically means I'm not interested in a fluff description like "a bladesinger is a spellcaster which attacks with a sword". That tells us nothing. What specific actions does the character take, and in what proportion does it use "cast spell", "attack" and bonus actions?

Thank you.

 

[Horwath]

Elven chain.

Everyone is proficient with this armour.

You treat is both as light and medium armour. Whatever is more beneficial to you.


Add a martial weapon that is between longsword and scimitar: sabre, shamshir, elven curved blade, whatever.

1d8 slashing damage, one handed, finesse.

 

[Hathorym]

#4) Bladesingers gain medium armor proficiency and can use Bladesong with it. On the surface this seems to fix the problem. They can wear medium armor from the start, so they stay lore friendly, and once they find elven chain they are fully embodying their archetype. The problem with this is that elven chain grants them no particular benefit that would make it a special coveted armor for them. They're better off with a +1 breastplate. In contrast to the lore that makes elven chain the jelly to Bladesinger's peanut butter, it is actually better for a non-Bladesinger wizard, sorcerer, lore bard, or Blade Pact warlock. This is the best house rule option, but it is still unsatisfying.


Who has a better house rule option for me?

Elven chain.

Everyone is proficient with this armour.

This.

The DMG clearly states:

Elven Chain
Armor (chain shirt), rare

You gain +1 bonus to AC while you wear this armor. You are considered proficient with this armor even if you lack proficiency with medium armor

Note, it does not say you have to have proficiency in ANY armor, only that you are considered proficient even if you LACK proficiency with medium armor. Therefore, by RAW, any character, regardless of class or proficiency, may use Elven Chain. That would include Bladesingers.

With that in mind, I would simply make a new item called Lesser Elven Chain, which removes the dex limit regular chain shirts would have. It costs three times as much as a chain shirt normally would, (150gp), sold only by elves to elves, but does not convey the +1 bonus. It is simply an exotic armor that requires no proficiency. Limit it to only bladesingers too, and anyone wearing it that isnt an elven bladesinger gets some awesome RP issues. That way it is obtainable, though not easily, and will allow Bladesingers to move forward through lore.

Is everyone going to want this armor? Sure. That's why you make it RP intensive and cause so many problems with it that a non-elven non-bladesinger will even bother with it.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I am still very confused.

Perhaps you should begin by defining what you consider an appropriate Bladesinger, and more specifically:
1) how much "martial" does it get?
2) how much "magical" does it get?
3) how does it spends it rounds?

For 1+2 you can answer by approximating the number of fighter and wizard levels respectively (for a level 20 Bladesinger).

Sorry for the delay--I haven't been around for a while.

I'm willing to accept some variance in level of martial and magical for a Bladesinger, as a Bladesinger is a specific flavor of the classic fighter/magic-user, rather than identical to the concept. For a classic fighter/mage, I'd want a 20th level character to be about 15th or 16th level in each class. For this 5e iteration, I'm okay with having it be mostly mage, with a cleric level of melee ability.

For 3 I want to know if it regularly uses the "attack" action, the "cast spell" action or some variant thereof. I am also interested to know if there are any go-to cantrips you feel is essential to the build, and whether any bonus action will be regularly used (and if so, for what).

I see it switching on and off between attacks and spells, probably 60-70% melee attacks. I feel that either green flame blade or booming blade are pretty essential to the 5e version for damage purposes (since a Bladesinger concept needs decent melee damage), but getting that damage through spells isn't essential. Decent damage doesn't mean on par with a rogue or single classed fighter. It does mean keeping up with a melee cleric or their own ranged cantrip damage. Basically, I see them casting one concentration spell (if the situation warrants it) then spending the rest of the combat alternating between melee attacks and a variety of spells that fit their personal style. Fireball, fly, magic missile, dispel magic, stinking cloud, invisibility, haste, whatever. They are warrior with one hand and wizard with the other in combat. For bonus actions, I have no particular thoughts on their frequency. My image of the playstyle doesn't require them, although if it has useful spells that can be cast with bonus actions that is a great opportunity to swing a weapon and cast a spell on the same round--always a good thing.

I'm asking this because I am confused when you say it's a heavily MAD class. Any class with access to 9th level spells can and will ignore martial weapons. Any class with access to close to full fighter abilities will only use magic to enhance martial abilities.

I completely disagree with this. Valor Bard, Bladesinger, and Tempest Cleric are examples of subclasses with 9th level spells that imply melee presence. Sure, you can do more damage with a meteor swarm, but that gets into all sorts of playstyle considerations. How many encounters do you have in a day, how many spell slots do you use for non-ritual utility spells outside of combat, etc. A Bladesinger that only uses his weapon for playing with kobolds at low levels and then switches to exclusive caster combat is a design failure. I don't think they failed on this design, and I think Bladesinger is fine from a purely mechanical standpoint.

I consider Bladesinger to be MAD dependent because it needs a good casting stat and a good attack stat on those criteria. Requiring a third stat (Intelligence plus Strength & Dexterity) to build a Bladesinger to represent a traditional concept, while still having that concept be less effective than building a character with Intelligence and Dexterity alone, is a complete design fail. The initial premise of discussion was about how to fix that particular problem. I'm not trying to improve the effectiveness of Bladesinger, rather I'm trying to find the easiest way to fix that lore/mechanical effectiveness mismatch.

 

[CapnZapp]

Well, okay, but I don't think it is that unreasonable to think characters with full wizard levels will (and should) drop any pretense at martial combat (the attack action). I know I said "access to 9th level spells" but I really meant something like wizard (or probably sorcerer).

For instance, you bring up Bard. While Bards have been granted access to 9th level spells, their spell list is considerably less offense-related, which is key.

The Bladesinger, in contrast, only loses the school features of an Evoker or Diviner (etc). I don't feel it really is the best chassi to build your vision of a bladesinger.

In my opinion, the design failure of the 5e starts with giving it far too attractive spell options, rather than any relatively minor ability score or armor related issue. Yes, you CAN enter melee as a 5e Bladesinger, but why on earth would you ever?

All the benefits conferred by Bladesinging are excellent... for your survival. But you lose little by staying at a traditional safe distance for a spellcaster. You still have access to excellent ranged cantrips.

THAT is the primary issue that I think you need to adress first.

I'm thinking that for your purposes you need a build that offers less magical firepower, enough so to justify entering melee. You still need "cleric level" of martial ability - I completely agree there.

Which leads us to the Valor Bard. As I see it, it is the basic build that comes closest to your goal in many aspects (reasonable martial features, strong but not exceptional magicks), except possibly the spell selections.

One wild idea I haven't checked out in detail: Have you considered what would happen if you applied the Bladesinger subclass on top of the Bard or Cleric base class?

Zapp

PS. Oh, one more thing - please remember that you don't actually need level 9 spells to become a fearsome caster in 5th edition. This is because your save DC increases automatically with your level (actually your spellcasting stat): a Fireball or Hold Person is just as fearsome from somebody with only access to 5th level spells as those who can cast Wish.

So one simple option might be to create a variant of Eldritch Knight to serve as your Bladesinger. As I see it, you might not have to do more than to give it the full Wizard spell list, perhaps in exchange for a lower hit die, and you're done...?

As a Fighter, you can go with finesse weapons and thus avoid MAD - a Bladesinging Eldritch Knight should be able to get by with Dex and Int, and with Con as its tertiary (but no surprise there)

PPS. I guess the TL;DR: would be "don't focus on the Bladesinger"; the choice to base it on the Wizard chassi makes it too strong on spells - giving it the martial abilities you need makes it almost a gestalt character, which makes it an overpowered special snowflake unless everybody else too gains fat bonuses.

 

[WarpedAcorn]

Which leads us to the Valor Bard. As I see it, it is the basic build that comes closest to your goal in many aspects (reasonable martial features, strong but not exceptional magicks), except possibly the spell selections.

That's an interesting idea. I kind of like the concept of attaching the Bladesinger Archetype to the Bard Base-Class as opposed to Wizard. It actually hits a lot of the notes (pun intended) of the original Bladesinger that way, and bumps up from a d6 to a d8 in terms of HP which is a big deal for a melee combatant. You can almost dump it right onto the class without any issue outside of the Charisma/Int stat...unless you just alter it so that Bladesinging abilities work off of the Cha stat. And while they don't receive many damaging spells, Bards do get to pick a few spells from any list which can be where you grab your damaging offensive spells.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I'm willing to accept some variance in level of martial and magical for a Bladesinger, as a Bladesinger is a specific flavor of the classic fighter/magic-user, rather than identical to the concept. For a classic fighter/mage, I'd want a 20th level character to be about 15th or 16th level in each class. For this 5e iteration, I'm okay with having it be mostly mage, with a cleric level of melee ability.



I see it switching on and off between attacks and spells, probably 60-70% melee attacks. I feel that either green flame blade or booming blade are pretty essential to the 5e version for damage purposes (since a Bladesinger concept needs decent melee damage), but getting that damage through spells isn't essential. Decent damage doesn't mean on par with a rogue or single classed fighter. It does mean keeping up with a melee cleric or their own ranged cantrip damage. Basically, I see them casting one concentration spell (if the situation warrants it) then spending the rest of the combat alternating between melee attacks and a variety of spells that fit their personal style. Fireball, fly, magic missile, dispel magic, stinking cloud, invisibility, haste, whatever. They are warrior with one hand and wizard with the other in combat. For bonus actions, I have no particular thoughts on their frequency. My image of the playstyle doesn't require them, although if it has useful spells that can be cast with bonus actions that is a great opportunity to swing a weapon and cast a spell on the same round--always a good thing.

Running off that description, what is it that you think you need for a bladesinger character that isn't provided by the current Eldritch Knight or EK/wizard multiclass?
Other than the name of the subclass?