Need a quick answer - can Shadows crit?

[Hypersmurf]

Not to threadjack or anything, but I have always wondered whether a critical hit from something like a wraith (which gains hit points from its target) gives the wraith double the hit points. The spectre explicitly says "five hit points per negative level" whereas the wraith simply says "five hit points per successful attack." Thus the implication on a critical is yes for the spectre but no for the wraith. Any thoughts?

From the description of Ability Drain: Unless otherwise specified in the creature’s description, a draining creature gains 5 temporary hit points (10 on a critical hit) whenever it drains an ability score no matter how many points it drains.

So it depends whether you consider the language in the Wraith text to be 'specifiying otherwise'

Right indeed, so I reminded him it was actually Create Spawn that is killing him.

No - Create Spawn doesn't kill him. What kills him is Strength Damage (Su) - specifically, "A creature reduced to Strength 0 by a shadow dies."

He's already dead, some rounds before Create Spawn kicks in.

-Hyp.

 

[frankthedm]

I say those rolls are awesome, and the PC dies, and becomes a shadow, and everyone is happy that you didn't screw with the consistency of the rules. This is a memorable occasion! In a year your players will say, "oh, yar, remember Stumpy? yeah, that was a terrible event... <wipes tear from eye>"

I also say no fudging. Though I also feel the 3e designers made a HUGE mistake making the Shadow's damage go directly to STR.

In 2e the shadow did 1d4+1 damage and one point of Strength {sort of damage that came back about an hour later] .HP went up significantly in 3E, though honestly STR scores came down at early levels since folks no longer needed to have 17-18(%) STR as in 2E to even have an attack / damage bonus. IMHO 2d4, 1d10 or maybe 1d12 damage + 2 STR damage would have been FAR better for 3e CR3 shadows to deal on a hit. The main problem with 1d6 STR is it is only slightly less dangerous to a high level character than the low level character since stats go up nowhere near as fast as HP. {and then we have the problem of only a few ways to improve touch AC’s].

The chilling touch of a shadow inflicts 2-5 points of damage to its victim as well as draining one point of Strength. Lost Strength points return 2-8 turns after being touched. If a human or demihuman opponent is reduced to zero Strength or zero hit points by a shadow, the shadow has drained the life force and the opponent becomes a shadow as well. The newly formed shadow is then compelled to join the roving band and pursue a life of evil. Other living creatures simply collapse from fatigue (if taken to zero Strength) or fall unconscious (if taken to zero hit points), where they are left to die or are hounded again upon waking.

 

[KarinsDad]

Thinking what I'm thinking? 5th level instanteous -- as in lasts forever -- cleric spell cast on many religious structures? Yup, I'm willing to say it's there, so if they think of it and drag him to safety, they can save him -- he's only about 20 ft. from the doorway!

Sounds weak to me. I do not like fudging.

And at 1000+ GP for the spell, that's a lot of chocolate.

We'll see if anyone gets it . . . the "interred" part is interesting. Ah, technically, "any DEAD body interred in a hallowed site cannot be tuend into an undead creature", but I'll be an activist judge on this one and assume the Founding Fathers INTENT was no undead can be formed in a hallowed place, whether the victim is technically still alive until he spawns, or not.

An interred dead body cannot become undead. So, this could be ruled to prevent him from turning into an undead, but he still dies. Otherwise, if he never dies, the spell never prevents him from turning into an undead. The spell only prevents turning into an undead creature if the creature is dead. It does nothing for if he is turned into an undead while alive.

any dead body interred in a hallowed site cannot be turned into an undead creature

Either way, he is either dead (and not turned into a shadow), or turned into a shadow.


Changing the scenario AND changing how the spell actually works is a LOT of fudge.

Suck it up. As DM, you should expect the PCs to die every once in a while.

What good is it if the DM comes and saves the day? No challenge that.

 

[Bad Paper]

From the description of Ability Drain: Unless otherwise specified in the creature’s description, a draining creature gains 5 temporary hit points (10 on a critical hit) whenever it drains an ability score no matter how many points it drains.

So it depends whether you consider the language in the Wraith text to be 'specifiying otherwise'

damn glossary! Thanks for the tip.

And just to weigh in again in the "kill him already" camp: sometimes it's fun to make ex-PCs into returning villains. A PC slain by a mohrg eventually returns as a zombie. I had the BBEG swoop in and use an artifact to turn this slain (and unrecoverable) PC into a ghoul that retained his old abilities. (later someone pointed me to Monte Cook's ghoul template. Mine was extremely close to his.) So! A hobgoblin ghoul monk (with all the PC's loot) is a meanie indeedy!

You can't do anything particularly fancy with this shadow, I think, but you should learn to appreciate PC death! It's fun!

 

[frankthedm]

You can't do anything particularly fancy with this shadow, I think, but you should learn to appreciate PC death! It's fun!

I beg to differ. When the shadow spawns, have the PC choose who to the shadow attacks until it is destroyed or a TPK hapens!. What better way is there for the player to take vengence on the party that let the shadow get to him?!

 

[IcyCool]

You can't do anything particularly fancy with this shadow, I think, but you should learn to appreciate PC death! It's fun!

Emancipated Spawn from Libris Mortis. A vengeful shadow out to end his former compatriots who left him to die...

 

[Kafkonia]

Emancipated Spawn from Libris Mortis. A vengeful shadow out to end his former compatriots who left him to die...

Especially if he knows that they could have dragged him 20 ft to the hallowed crypt and he wouldn't have had to face this mockery of his former life.

So here's a question -- if you inter someone in his position in hallowed ground, and then a few years later he's removed (or the place is no longer hallowed), does the undead transformation resume?

 

[IcyCool]

So here's a question -- if you inter someone in his position in hallowed ground, and then a few years later he's removed (or the place is no longer hallowed), does the undead transformation resume?

Hmmm, my plot sense is tingling, and it's telling me the answer to that question is a great big yes!

Step 1. Great heroes of days gone by that have been slain by various spawn creating monsters have been laid to rest in the hallowed catacombs of the Radiant Temple.

Step 2. Evil bard mastermind (Dirgesinger for extra coolness) discovers who among them were slain by spawn-creators and arranges for some late-night grave digging, or a dispelling of the hallow effect.

Step 3. ????

Step 4. Chaos!

 

[Dross]

I'm not a fan of letting the PC stay alive. Raising or Resurecting if prevented from becomeing undead I would allow after appropriate plot use is done.

Other Q's:
How intelligent is the ANIMAL companion to know to drag the dead PC to hallowed ground?
How strict do you want to interpret "interned"?
How does anyone (PC or Player) know that there is hallowed ground nearby to use this trick without it seeming to be DM fiat to 'save' a PC?

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

This is going away from the rules question.. but I think that was answered soundly already.

Regarding the Hallowed, I would be willing to rule that moving the soon to be spawned character into the temple and praying over him would suffice to hold off the transformation...but, similiar to IcyCool, I would see that as a plot device for future undead fun.

I would not allow an animal companion to be smart enough to drag the character off to the hallowed ground...