Need a quick answer - can Shadows crit?

[Particle_Man]

I've wanted to do something with shades for years. Any idea what Dragon that's in?

Dragon #322

 

[Hypersmurf]

His solution is an Enlarge spell, to get his Str above 0 so he can take an action, then wild shape so he can take Animal form. Create Spawn only works on humanoids, so QED.

Note that this won't work if you're using the current Wildshape rules; now that Wildshape is based of Alternate Form instead of Polymorph, your Type does not change.

So he'll be a Humanoid (human) in the shape of a dog, not an Animal, and still subject to Create Spawn.

If you're using Wildshape as written in the PHB (pre the Polymorph Subschool and related 'errata'), though, his idea should work, given that you've ruled he isn't dead yet.

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

How am I changing the scenario?

You added a Hallow spell to a location that previously did not have it.

With the GP cost of Hallow (which is substantial), that's significant. It's not much different than suddenly adding some more mooks to the BBEG because the PCs are kicking his butt, or having some of the BBEG's mooks who were going to show up, not show up because the BBEG is kicking the PC's butts.

It's just something that I personally do not do in my campaigns and am not too keen on it when a DM does it to me.

As an example, we had a scenario some time back where a given treasure had a Scroll of Raise Dead in it. One of the PCs actually died during that scenario, but the other PCs found the scroll.

One of the players (actually, the one whose PC died) said: "A Scroll of Raise Dead? How convenient." and he laughed.

So, I covered up my notes and showed him that one line and he said "Holy Crap. There really was a Scroll of Raise Dead in the loot.".

It freaked him out a little that I wasn't actually fudging that. If there had been no Scroll of Raise Dead in that treasure, one would not have mysteriously appeared.

As for changing the rules, other than my mistake about Str drain FROM a shadow killing (as opposed to normal Str drain per the DMG NOT killing), I don't think I'm changing much.

The argument about Hallow not allowing undead to form and the 'dead body' party being more an example than a limitation of the Founder Intent is one a good lawyer could slip by, I think. I'll interpret it that way because (a) it fits what I think the rule means, (b) mythology matters more to me than the RAW, and (c) I figure giving the player a break when the dice are too hot is no bad thing.

I'm not saying that you cannot change the rule. You're the DM. But it's hardly Designer Intent to have Hallow prevent living creatures from dying from undead creatures. It's Designer Intent to have dead creatures not come back as undead.

You accidentally changed the "Shadows kill rule" and then purposely changed the "Hallow prevents dead creatures from becoming undead rule".


Btw, the odds of rolling good Str damage even without a critical are fairly high. In a fight with Shadows, it is likely that even if none of them critical, one or more (or even all) low level PCs will in fact die. Even if a given Shadow only does 2 to 4 Str damage with a given attack, that will often cause a PC to be encumbered and will result in less melee damage against the Shadow. Shadows can Fly and attack at 40 Speed, Charge at 80 and have touch attacks. PCs cannot get away from them and are extremely easy to hit. The Shadows cannot be affected by mundane weapons, only magical ones or spells.

So overall, the Shadows get turned, get killed (hard to do on incorporeal creatures), or they kill PCs. If they do not get turned, most encounters with Shadows for low level PCs are deadly.

 

[Arkhandus]

Huh? All you need is for the shadow(s) to surprise the PCs, which isn't difficult for a creature that makes no sound and is incorporeal. Shadow rises out of floor or steps out of wall to attack PCs. Bingo!

Except that, in almost any scenario, it should be the people at the front of the group who end up stirring monsters/foes and getting their attention, inadvertently or not. The physical weaklings have no reason to be near the front of the group, and thus shouldn't be getting attacked first. Even if the group is bunched up, the frontmost individual is likely to be attacked first, generally.

What if the PCs were surprised and weren't expecting shadows? Shield of Faith and Prot. from Evil are both 1 min/lvl, so it's difficult to have them up unless expecting trouble immediately.

I know, and I did mention this regarding CR; that if caught completely unaware or unprepared, they should be considered to be facing a much higher CR in the case of Shadows. The DMG gives mention that significantly favorable or unfavorable circumstances alter the CR (or EL, I just forget which), treating an encounter as more deadly or less so. As such, it would be the DM's fault if he had some 3rd-level PCs surprised by a Shadow, knowing full well that incorporeal undead are extremely nasty at such low levels, and that it deals significant, deadly ability damage with ease.

Moreso bushwhacking one of the group's most gangly, feeble members (probably a mage or skill-monkey) from out of nowhere, when, as stated, the frontmost teammates are most likely to stir the attention of hidden foes. Now if the players just stupidly keep their mage/thief/whatever at the front of the group where he/she is nice and vulnerable, then as I mentioned earlier, they're doing something blatantly foolish or brazen to earn whatever horrible fate befalls their PCs.

Wow! Some DM really must have done a number on your PC(s).

PCs don't even die in my game, but I can see why what haakon1 described can happen without automatically calling him a jerk, fool or lazy bum.

Relax, already! It's just a game. In fact, it's just a game you're not even involved in (since I presume you're not in haakon1's group).

Nope, not involved. Just as I said, I've noticed this kinda stupid DM mistake all too often (not just against me, mind; it's resulted in TPKs too), and it's a rather glaring sign that the DM is either very much a newbie (acceptable, for the first instance), or otherwise most certainly a fool, jerk, or lazy bum that doesn't want to bother thinking about any campaign material, like encounters, before dropping it into the PCs' laps. It's just so terribly easy to see that incorporeal undead are not something you throw randomly at low-level parties without any forethought.

PCs die in my games when they go into battle with something tough and get horrible luck, or make bad tactical decisions, or otherwise blunder/charge into dangerous situations without some common sense or restraint. Making stupid choices or being brash will sometimes get PCs killed, but they can be certain in my games that they will NOT get slaughtered at random, by some surprise-ambush critter that is Uber for its CR, or by random virtually-unavoidable traps. If they get ambushed, and they didn't do something stupid to cause a really nasty ambush, then they can expect I will not have them all slaughtered in their sleep, or ambushed by enemies they can't possibly fight off at the time.

A few PCs have died in my Rhunaria game, one of which was able to return (thanks to a one-time favor by an NPC they actually decided to make nice with, rather than ignore or p**s off). One or two died in my Oriental Adventures campaign before that. Don't recall any other PC deaths, don't think there were any. I make sure they understand before the game that I am not out to get them, but their PCs will die if they make foolish mistakes in dangerous places; they're generally quick to start healing themselves/each other as soon as one of them gets mauled by attracting the attention of too many enemies, or too-big enemies, otherwise they'd have lost several more PCs by now (crits happen!).

I think there may have been one single time I fudged a die roll to allow a PC to survive, what would've been a deadly critical hit (making it a normal but highly damaging hit). And only, if I recall correctly, because it was from a fairly average orc (2nd-level warrior or something), in a fairly routine battle in an unimportant place (i.e., no glory to be had in dying there, such an ignonimous death as to be pitiful).

 

[haakon1]

....Just how a Str 10 low-level character allowed himself to get slapped through the heart by a Shadow is beyond me. Or how a DM allowed the Shadow to get so close to the weakling without any chance of keeping it away or preoccupied by other creatures.

Shadows are CR 3 in 3E (maybe different in 3.5?), and have +2 Turn Resistance, so it'd take a high roll by a low-level cleric to turn them. But at least they'd have several chances, and would also be capable of driving them off with Cure Light or Cure Moderate spells. They'd also have access to Shield of Faith and Protection from Evil. All of which could help protect a PC or maim a Shadow.

The party's mage could've had Mage Armor, Protection from Evil, Cat's Grace, or Shield (for himself/herself anyway) to protect against such, and 1 or more Magic Missiles to harm the Shadow, perhaps Magic Weapon to imbue the melee guy's weapon with magic, allowing it a 50/50 chance of harming the Shadow (and the melee guy's the most likely one to survive one or two touches from a Shadow). Even with a standard party, a Shadow is tough to handle, since the party might not be prepared to face it (no Magic Weapon, Magic Missile, Mage Armor, Shield of Faith, or Protection from Evil spells ready, for instance). But at the very least, the cleric would have a chance of turning it, and thus allowing the PCs to run away.

The DMG specifically states that undead are given Challenge Ratings based on the assumption of an average party; 1 cleric, 1 rogue, 1 wizard or equivalent, and 1 fighter or equivalent. It specifically mentions expecting the party to have a cleric (and thus, access to significant anti-undead effects). You should always, ALWAYS, by the core rules, consider undead to have a higher Challenge Rating (or Encounter Level at least) if the PCs are lacking a critical part of the iconic archetypes, especially clerics or wizards/sorcerers.

This means you can expect a non-standard party, or a totally surprised and unprepared party, to treat a Shadow as a few CRs or ELs higher than normal, thus rendering it a likely-deadly encounter for very-low-level PCs. Slightly-low-level PCs should at least have been able to avoid getting their physically-weakest member seriously bushwhacked, by a Shadow, totally out of the blue. But these are all up the DM not going out of his way to kill the PCs or just throwing random monsters at them without any earlier consideration.



Sorry if it seems harsh, but I see too many DMs screw over their PCs just out of a total lack of planning or consideration. My own PCs included. It's stupid when a DM goes around slaughtering or ruining PCs at random just out of poorly-conceived preprations, and then has the gall to just say 'Oops, sorry. Oh well, too bad for you. Bye.' Especially when there was absolutely nothing the player did to warrant such screwing-over, and nothing they could've done to prevent it after it began, as in the case of your Shadow encounter I would be willing to bet. If a PC dies without having done something foolish or brazen to earn it, then fault must surely fall squarely on the DM's shoulders as a jerk, fool, or lazy bum. Acceptable somewhat with a novice DM, too inexperienced to have learned the ropes, but no one else.

The party is 8 characters, 5th-7th level: cleric 5, druid 5(the one drained), fighter 7, monk 7, ranger 3/rogue 3, wizard 5, wizard 4/sor 1, and wiz 4/fighter 1.


They decided to attack the undead. They knew they were there, but didn't know their number or type. They decided to attack at night, and to not turn them, because they know they only come out at night, and they wanted to kill them rather than chase them around the surrounding forest.

Basically, the party was getting cocky. But only a little cocky. I thought they'd win with some minor Strength draining that would heal in a few days, and so did they.

I don't think 8 CR3 monsters for 8 5th-7th level characters is at all an unfair challenge. The cleric is 5th level, so with +2 Turn Resistance, it's a straight up equal level turning situation. He just hasn't tried to turn them yet. Currently, they've killed 5 of the 8 shadows, in 3 rounds of combat.

As an aside: Frankly, I wouldn't care if it was a properly WOTC approved challenge for the party at this level or not. The challenge was there, and the PC's decided to go after it. I don't run a world with safety helmets for everybody . . . if a 1st level character decides to a rob a dragon's cave, good luck to him. It's POSSIBLE he might live and have a very exciting adventure sneaking out or bluffing somehow . . . just not very likely.

The character who got drained is a druid. He attacked the shadow to save one of the party's two mages. He didn't have Mage Armor, but it wouldn't have mattered what he had, since I rolled two natch 20's in a row. Sometimes your luck is so bad, preparation or lack of it really doesn't matter . . .

The mages are using Mage Armor, and have been firing repeated salvos of Magic Missiles, which is a big help in the Shadow destruction they've been doing. The party as a whole is in no danger, but one character is going down.

I really don't think I'm screwing anybody, just playing the game. I don't think the players are doing a bad job either -- they're just playing their characters and got unlucky.

 

[haakon1]

Note that this won't work if you're using the current Wildshape rules; now that Wildshape is based of Alternate Form instead of Polymorph, your Type does not change.

So he'll be a Humanoid (human) in the shape of a dog, not an Animal, and still subject to Create Spawn.

If you're using Wildshape as written in the PHB (pre the Polymorph Subschool and related 'errata'), though, his idea should work, given that you've ruled he isn't dead yet.

-Hyp.

I'm just using the 3.5e Core Rules, as much as I can remember what they are/look up the right stuff, so theoretically, it would have worked.

But it's not where the party is headed. Three PC's have different ideas on this. The cleric has started dragging him toward hallowed ground. The monk is looking for oil to burn him up before he's undead (better dead than undead, which is technically true -- Raise Dead/Reincarnate are options for the merely dead). Another character is praying a pray for the dying/dead. Looks like he'll be OK, as long as someone talks the oil guy out of it in time.

Somehow, I just knew someone would have the bright idea of setting him on fire.

 

[Nail]

Eight CR 3 monsters is an EL 9.

Your party APL is 7.6.

This encounter is "Very Difficult", and given the shadow's particular power (1d6 Str drain + death&spawn at Str 0), it's not at all surprising one PC died.

...or should have died without DM fudging, anyway.

Luck has very little to do with it. The truth is in the numbers.

 

[KarinsDad]

I don't think 8 CR3 monsters for 8 5th-7th level characters is at all an unfair challenge.

No?


Most of the PCs probably have a touch AC of around 12. That means that the Shadows hit 60% of the time, let's call it overall 50% of the time (higher Dex for some PCs, Mage Armor on a few, etc.). With 8 Shadows, that's 4 hits per round until attrition sets in. In a 4 round combat, that might be about 4+3+2+1 successful hits or about 12 hits or about 42 Str drained from various PCs (or even more). A given PC with a 10 Str will be killed on average within 6 rounds, but on average, each PC only loses about 5 Strength (course, with an average, some PCs might take 0 Str and some might take 10 Str or more). This, of course, assumes that each Shadow only attacks one PC and multiple Shadows do not gang up on individual PCs.


Most the the PCs probably hit the Shadows 70% to 95% of the time (AC 13 is pretty low) * 50% incorporeal miss chance. If the average PC damage is 10 (combative types do more, less combative types do less), that means that a given undamaged PC will kill a given Shadow in melee after 5 standard action (or full round) attacks. Since most of the PCs do not have 2 attacks per round yet, that basically equates to about 5 rounds (on average) for each PC to kill each Shadow (it would be 6 rounds due to PCs losing Str with equates to a lesser to hit and lesser damage, but this drops somewhat due to arcane casters using Magic Missile sometimes with auto-hit for 7.5 average damage).


All in all, the balance of this combat (given that the Cleric is not attempting to turn) is iffy. A given PC can not only die with the Natural 20 that you rolled, but he can also die by round 2 with two D20 rolls of 10+ (and two high D6s).

It is REAL easy for the Shadows to hit. Double digits on the D20 is typically all that is needed and you have 8 of them attacking. 4 average successful attacks (not including crits) in round one means 14 Str damage in round one on average. More if the Shadows roll lucky.

 

[haakon1]

You added a Hallow spell to a location that previously did not have it.

With the GP cost of Hallow (which is substantial), that's significant. It's not much different than suddenly adding some more mooks to the BBEG because the PCs are kicking his butt, or having some of the BBEG's mooks who were going to show up, not show up because the BBEG is kicking the PC's butts.

It's just something that I personally do not do in my campaigns and am not too keen on it when a DM does it to me.

As an example, we had a scenario some time back where a given treasure had a Scroll of Raise Dead in it. One of the PCs actually died during that scenario, but the other PCs found the scroll.

One of the players (actually, the one whose PC died) said: "A Scroll of Raise Dead? How convenient." and he laughed.

So, I covered up my notes and showed him that one line and he said "Holy Crap. There really was a Scroll of Raise Dead in the loot."

It freaked him out a little that I wasn't actually fudging that. If there had been no Scroll of Raise Dead in that treasure, one would not have mysteriously appeared..

Actually, I agree with you, but I don't think this is an instance of changing the loot/adding deleting monsters depending on party strength.

To me, it's more about what should logically be there. For instance, it doesn't specifically say there are carpentry tools in the village in this module. But when the PC's were living there for two months and wanted to build a wooden building, I figured, "Sure, a village in the forest with wooden buildings must have the right tools for that."

In the same way, I figure a Chapel that's been around for hundreds if not thousands of years must have been Hallowed at some point. Under old 1st edition UA rules, a religious edifice had to be built on hallowed ground or it would collapse 1% per year. And it's not a minor wayside Chapel, but an ancient monument of regional reknown, near an ancient center of druidic worship.

To me, the one thing I papered over seriously is that the Chapel is dedicated to 9 different gods (pantheonic worship of a sort), and a place can only be Hallowed or Unhallowed to one god at a time. To me, that's the best argument (besides it not being mentioned in the module, along with them not mentioning where the minister stores her food or goes to the bathroom, etc.) for why it wouldn't be Hallowed.

Anyhow, detailing things as it seems logical to me -- rather than as is convenient to the characters -- is the difference between acceptable winging and too much DM ex machina, to me.

I'm not saying that you cannot change the rule. You're the DM. But it's hardly Designer Intent to have Hallow prevent living creatures from dying from undead creatures. It's Designer Intent to have dead creatures not come back as undead.

You accidentally changed the "Shadows kill rule" and then purposely changed the "Hallow prevents dead creatures from becoming undead rule".

Right, but I think unless one accidentally misses the "Shadow Str drain is different regular Str drain rule", as I did, there's no way I can think of for LIVE people to become undead without being dead first. Is there?

So it depends on whether you view the "dead can't become undead here" rule as being a "can't form undead here, and by the way you make undead from dead people" rule -- in which case it applies here -- or a "live people can become undead here, but dead people can't" rule. The general prohibition of undead forming on hallowed ground feels right, since, as I say, I can't imagine a circumstance in which live people would normally be going undead.

I'm going for "truthiness"/the right mythological feel, not programming logic. It's more 1st Edition DMing than 3.5e DMing, I supposed.

Btw, the odds of rolling good Str damage even without a critical are fairly high. In a fight with Shadows, it is likely that even if none of them critical, one or more (or even all) low level PCs will in fact die. Even if a given Shadow only does 2 to 4 Str damage with a given attack, that will often cause a PC to be encumbered and will result in less melee damage against the Shadow. Shadows can Fly and attack at 40 Speed, Charge at 80 and have touch attacks. PCs cannot get away from them and are extremely easy to hit. The Shadows cannot be affected by mundane weapons, only magical ones or spells.

So overall, the Shadows get turned, get killed (hard to do on incorporeal creatures), or they kill PCs. If they do not get turned, most encounters with Shadows for low level PCs are deadly.

These are more mid-level PC's (5th-7th). And they had turning, they just chose not to use it, because they were more worried about the monsters getting away than getting hurt by them. They figured they could turn if things started to go South -- it's just that a crit on a weak but aggressive party member upset their plans.

 

[haakon1]

Nope, not involved. Just as I said, I've noticed this kinda stupid DM mistake all too often (not just against me, mind; it's resulted in TPKs too), and it's a rather glaring sign that the DM is either very much a newbie (acceptable, for the first instance), or otherwise most certainly a fool, jerk, or lazy bum that doesn't want to bother thinking about any campaign material, like encounters, before dropping it into the PCs' laps. It's just so terribly easy to see that incorporeal undead are not something you throw randomly at low-level parties without any forethought.

Ok then. I must be at least one of these bad things. Hmmm, I'll go with undead.

PCs die in my games when they go into battle with something tough and get horrible luck, or make bad tactical decisions, or otherwise blunder/charge into dangerous situations without some common sense or restraint. Making stupid choices or being brash will sometimes get PCs killed, but they can be certain in my games that they will NOT get slaughtered at random, by some surprise-ambush critter that is Uber for its CR, or by random virtually-unavoidable traps. If they get ambushed, and they didn't do something stupid to cause a really nasty ambush, then they can expect I will not have them all slaughtered in their sleep, or ambushed by enemies they can't possibly fight off at the time..

There's actually an interesting debate in there about whether adventures should be "as they are" for PC's to explore or always geared to the particular party.