Need a quick answer - can Shadows crit?

[haakon1]

No?


Most of the PCs probably have a touch AC of around 12. That means that the Shadows hit 60% of the time, let's call it overall 50% of the time (higher Dex for some PCs, Mage Armor on a few, etc.). With 8 Shadows, that's 4 hits per round until attrition sets in. In a 4 round combat, that might be about 4+3+2+1 successful hits or about 12 hits or about 42 Str drained from various PCs (or even more). A given PC with a 10 Str will be killed on average within 6 rounds, but on average, each PC only loses about 5 Strength (course, with an average, some PCs might take 0 Str and some might take 10 Str or more). This, of course, assumes that each Shadow only attacks one PC and multiple Shadows do not gang up on individual PCs.


Most the the PCs probably hit the Shadows 70% to 95% of the time (AC 13 is pretty low) * 50% incorporeal miss chance. If the average PC damage is 10 (combative types do more, less combative types do less), that means that a given undamaged PC will kill a given Shadow in melee after 5 standard action (or full round) attacks. Since most of the PCs do not have 2 attacks per round yet, that basically equates to about 5 rounds (on average) for each PC to kill each Shadow (it would be 6 rounds due to PCs losing Str with equates to a lesser to hit and lesser damage, but this drops somewhat due to arcane casters using Magic Missile sometimes with auto-hit for 7.5 average damage).


All in all, the balance of this combat (given that the Cleric is not attempting to turn) is iffy. A given PC can not only die with the Natural 20 that you rolled, but he can also die by round 2 with two D20 rolls of 10+ (and two high D6s).

It is REAL easy for the Shadows to hit. Double digits on the D20 is typically all that is needed and you have 8 of them attacking. 4 average successful attacks (not including crits) in round one means 14 Str damage in round one on average. More if the Shadows roll lucky.

Well, the stats are the stats, but here's what actually happened:

Round 1: 2 Shadows versus 8 PC's.

Results: Shadow #1 slain, Shadow 2 at about 25% HP. No hit on the PC's, who are in line formation.

Round 2: 1 surviving Shadow plus 6 more versus 8 PC's.

Results: Shadow #2 slain, 4 more shadows wounded. One hit on a PC mage for 2 Str points. The PC's break formation to flank, get at more opponents for Cleaves, etc. Fighters are at the front, leaving the spellcasters to guard themselves.

Round 3: 6 Shadows +1 last shadow joining fight versus 8 PC's

Results: 3 more Shadows slain, all but 1 are wounded. Druid goes down with a critical hit, second mage, main fighter, and monk take 2-5 Str point hits -- the second mage is at 12/15 Str (randomly determined stats, not point buy), the main fighter is back to normal Str bonus of +4 (Bull's Strength is counteracted), and the monk is -1 from his usual TH and damage.

Round 4: 3 shadows (2 wounded) v. 7 PC's

Results: TBD

Basically, the party wasn't even scared enough to Turn, and they're eating these monsters for breakfast, other than the crit. Maybe that's statistically anomalous, but it doesn't surprise me with this party, and it's what they expected too.

 

[RigaMortus2]

As an aside: Frankly, I wouldn't care if it was a properly WOTC approved challenge for the party at this level or not. The challenge was there, and the PC's decided to go after it. I don't run a world with safety helmets for everybody . . . if a 1st level character decides to a rob a dragon's cave, good luck to him. It's POSSIBLE he might live and have a very exciting adventure sneaking out or bluffing somehow . . . just not very likely.

I 100% agree with this philosophy and this is how our group plays. There are times when the 3rd level party may run into a level 20 evil NPC, just as much as there are times when a level 12 party will run into a group of 1st level kobolds.

 

[Arkhandus]

haakon:
Thanks for at least, finally, giving some detail on the situation. Without that, you leave it pretty well vague and it seems like you're just an incapable DM, until actual facts are brought to light about the situation.

You said low-level PCs, but 5th-7th level is certainly not low-level. Once someone in the group is chucking fireballs, cure critical wounds, phantasmal killers, polymorphs, flame strikes, negative plane protections, magic circles against evil, lightning bolts, enervations, or contagions, you can no longer consider yourself low-level; you're lower-middle level at the very least, on the cusp of the big leagues, hurling spells of mass destruction and wielding magic weapons nearly as expensive as many a king's crown jewels.

By that point you'd expect a party of adventurers to be at least halfway-competent and not foolish enough to leave their fragile and egomaniacal weapons of mass destruction (read: mages) sitting around unguarded and alone, and you'd expect said WMDs to show at least half the genius-level Intelligence on their character sheet by not exposing themselves overmuch to attacks.

Since you've finally given some detail on the situation, I'd have to say that it was at least as much (if not primarily) player foolhardiness as it was DM laziness. Unless you're running a simple dungeon-crawl where each PC is essentially expendable and unimportant to the story (thus no conniptions/sulking about random PC deaths), in which case just PC brashness and understandable. But I would doubt that it's simply a dungeon-crawl, if it's a play-by-e-mail or play-by-post campaign.

It seems, from your bit of description now, that the PCs had no indication that there was actually a gaggle of Shadows lurking just around the corner, not merely 2? If so, they could not have possibly expected to be assaulted by wave after wave of Shadows with no obvious end to their numbers in sight (and thus no good reason to run away or turn undead, considering now that you've revealed it to be a large group of lower-mid-level PCs). If your melee warriors were not all equipped with +1 Ghost Touch weapons, I don't see why they rushed around to flank the Shadows rather than take Total Defense actions while remaining in a close perimeter around the spellcasters. Then I'd expect the priests to swat about with Cure spells and the mages to unleash Magic Missiles, possibly after Mage Armoring or Shield of Faithing/Shield Othering/Protection-from-Eviling the meat shields (since those spells would apply against incorporeal touches, unlike material armor).

Thus, overall likely more a matter of PC foolishness than DM laziness, but I still believe you may've erred on the side of 'not gonna do more thinking than absolutely necessary'. Until you gave some indication of the situation's specifics, I could only assume from your earlier posts that you were just being a lazy or inattentive DM, ignoring the facts in the DMG and MM.

You are the DM. You are supreme overlord of the game-world. You do not need to leave random batches of exceedingly-dangerous enemies lying around every other corner, just because. Mayhap the murderous beasties have wandered off for the moment to hunt/scout/gather supplies, if nothing else. A module is not overlord, you are. If the PCs blunder into something completely without any foreshadowing that it may be a really dangerous spot to go right now, then you always have the option of deciding that the big nasty critter/NPC is not around at the moment, and off handling other business right now; they may've left some minions around and the big nasty may've taken their valuables with them, but the big nasty doesn't have to actually be around right now just because the module says so or earlier plans say so. Or the area could just be warded at the time and inaccessible, even.

If the PCs have no idea where they should go, in general, or what kind of dangers their current quest/journey may entail, then it is usually the fault of the DM for not providing them any clue what the heck is going on, or even just asking them if they want to make certain appropriate Knowledge check attempts regarding their current plan/goal/location/destination.

If a Big Bad or war horde is in the vicinity, there should at least be some indication of such unless it's the proper time for the PCs to potentially encounter it. Nobody has fun when the next random room in the dungeon holds Iklarazoth the Half-Fiendish Mind Flayer Psion/Pyrokineticist, and the PCs are only a band of 5 4th-level heroes. Well, I guess the DM has fun if he's an RBDM, but that doesn't exactly incline the players to stick around and entertain the DM for any further sessions. Assuming it's not purely dungeon-crawling, because if it is, then the whole point is to run the gauntlet; otherwise it's a campaign-ender.

A bunch of Shadows, really, would probably lash out and kill one PC at a time, so I don't consider an encounter with waves of Shadows against a lower-mid-level party, that doesn't expect them, to be very fair (though I'm uncertain how they mowed down several Shadows so quickly; I imagine it has to do with the fact that the Shadows divided their attention, though I can understand going after the mage who's just Magic Missiled one or two Shadows out of existence. Thus why I would've expected them to try Turning, while the mages buffed their AC and possibly Strength (a cleric or wizard with some ranks in Knowledge - Religion should be able to make a check and 'recall' in-character that shadows kill by draining physical strength at a touch). I'd expect the clerics to probably attract a little more attention with their channeling of positive energy, though, and brandishing of holy symbols.



Sorry, but since my first and more polite posts in the D&D Rules forum were already horribly misconstrued as being rude and inflammatory by a few posters, who subsequently insulted and harassed me for it, I'm not going to bother trying to be utterly and unmistakably nice/polite in every post. I hardly ever bother to read or post to the D&D Rules forum, but I'm so bored lately that I somehow end up here after reading the General and House Rules forums. If people are determined to make me out as some kinda jerk, I may as well play devil's advocate or be blunt in pointing out problems/gaps in things. Critics still help somewhat in their own way.

I'll go now.

 

[haakon1]

Since you've finally given some detail on the situation, I'd have to say that it was at least as much (if not primarily) player foolhardiness as it was DM laziness.

Assuming everybody is lazy or foolish is what upsets people. You may be right, but it still upsets people to be told it.

I'd put down Greyamirl's death (as it should have been, if I'd read the MM Shadow entry to figure out what Ability Damage does instead of the DMG) to a pretty tough fight and some unlucky die rolls -- mixed in with a lot of luckier die rolls that made it seem easier than it really was.

But I would doubt that it's simply a dungeon-crawl, if it's a play-by-e-mail or play-by-post campaign.

Nod, it's a pretty character-heavy, rather than hack n' slash campaign. Email wouldn't work well if it wasn't. The player of the druid has been playing D&D since 1988, but he's a more casual player most of the time. He didn't know how much danger he was in with only an Str 10 and like a 12 or 13 touch AC. But he was playing the character right -- trying to rescue the wounded mage by throwing himself into the fight to protect her. As you say, protecting the mage is important. Not the best tactical decision, but the player is not remotely stupid (he's a math professor).

It seems, from your bit of description now, that the PCs had no indication that there was actually a gaggle of Shadows lurking just around the corner, not merely 2? If so, they could not have possibly expected to be assaulted by wave after wave of Shadows with no obvious end to their numbers in sight (and thus no good reason to run away or turn undead, considering now that you've revealed it to be a large group of lower-mid-level PCs).

Many days earlier, they captured the magic item used to make the undead and the cleric/druid who used it. And as the new government of the village she was terrorizing, tried and executed her. They knew undead were here, and they didn't think 2 shadows would be the full extent of it. The party leader should have let them rest after their previous exertions that day (no reason not to) and plan better spells for the fight, but he wanted to get on with it. That was foolhardy.

If your melee warriors were not all equipped with +1 Ghost Touch weapons, I don't see why they rushed around to flank the Shadows rather than take Total Defense actions while remaining in a close perimeter around the spellcasters.

Hoo-ah! Get some, get some, get some! That's why -- because they were in a gung-ho mood, and having fun mowing these things down. And it was working pretty well.

The party leader is a 7th level fighter with a 19 Str, Bull's Strength on top of that, and fighting two-handed with a +1 bastard sword. The second best is a 7th level monk with a +2 halberd and a 19 touch AC. Pretty much the only magical weapon misses against the Shadows AC 13 were from the 50% incorporeal rule.

You do not need to leave random batches of exceedingly-dangerous enemies lying around every other corner, just because.

It's never "just because".

If the PCs blunder into something completely without any foreshadowing that it may be a really dangerous spot to go right now, then you always have the option of deciding that the big nasty critter/NPC is not around at the moment, and off handling other business right now; they may've left some minions around and the big nasty may've taken their valuables with them, but the big nasty doesn't have to actually be around right now just because the module says so or earlier plans say so. Or the area could just be warded at the time and inaccessible, even.

Or they could be adventurers and risk their lives adventuring . . .

Nobody has fun when the next random room in the dungeon holds Iklarazoth the Half-Fiendish Mind Flayer Psion/Pyrokineticist, and the PCs are only a band of 5 4th-level heroes.

Really? We're all first edition veterans. Some of our fondest gaming memories are the big, bad tough fights we somehow survived. The most ridiculously tough? In Oriental Adventures, when were 4th or 5th level, somebody destroyed an altar of Demogorgon. The old boy himself gated in (on a random roll where we got very unlucky), but San Shei the samurai fired 4 arrows at him (I don't remember the rules that allowed that, but whatever) and the player rolled 4 straight natch 20's (natch 20 = crit under typical house rules at the time), to everyone's amazement. Demogorgon gated back out before he killed any of us! Much much more fun than an easy fight.

Of course, AD&D had much "easier" rules for mismatch encounters like that . . .

A bunch of Shadows, really, would probably lash out and kill one PC at a time

I role played the monsters . . . what would an Int 6 monster with a personality that is "Natural enemies of all that lives, shadows are aggressive and predatory. They are quick to strike" do when two of its number stand up and get wack-a-moled? My answer was: swarm the enemy -- kill them, kill them all!

Pretty much all the PC's were attacking them, and most were doing damage (or missing only because of incorporealness), so I had each of them attack the nearest PC to where they popped up.

Sorry, but since my first and more polite posts in the D&D Rules forum were already horribly misconstrued as being rude and inflammatory by a few posters, who subsequently insulted and harassed me for it, I'm not going to bother trying to be utterly and unmistakably nice/polite in every post. I hardly ever bother to read or post to the D&D Rules forum, but I'm so bored lately that I somehow end up here after reading the General and House Rules forums. If people are determined to make me out as some kinda jerk, I may as well play devil's advocate or be blunt in pointing out problems/gaps in things. Critics still help somewhat in their own way.

I'll go now.

OK. Well, I'll admit somethings you said upset me, but it's pretty interesting to be questioned on how I/my players do things. Our group definitely wasn't at our best in this fight, but I don't think we're a bunch of numbskulls, though I can see why you do.

Part of it just that we're looking for different things out of the game, perhaps. It may be a generational thing about how we grew up with D&D . . . we're deep role-players, but bash in the door and smash the enemy warriors. We get our kicks not from subtly doing a good build of a character with a lot of optional rules and then stacking spells to get results. We get it more from having a character with non-rules based quirks: one is from a bronze age culture, one is a nobleman, the monk was petrified for 200 years has an 18 Int (I saw him roll it) and is a bit of an intellectual/pacificist, except when he decides to fight. All have rules that are straight PHB (well, the bronze-age character has some appropriate feats from the NBOF, but they have to make sense from Greek warfare to get in -- I looked it up in history books, not rulebooks to see if it made sense). And then we like to take those characters into a good story that makes sense mythologically, rather than being D&Dish. And then we like to kill the baddies and rescue the good folks or do the other story-things. I think that's a very 1st editiony attitude to the game, since in general it's less concerned with rules, balance, builds, etc., and more about swashbuckling, freebooting heroic adventure "feel".