Need a quick answer - can Shadows crit?

[Particle_Man]

IF yo uhave the right dragon mag, there are "shade" class, umbral class, etc., which are actually monster classes with levels but you could adapt this. a) Put dude in Hallowed temple. b) Have dude raised. c) Force dude to take the umbral/shade levels to reflect his part-shadowy status.

 

[Bad Paper]

When the shadow spawns, have the PC choose who to the shadow attacks until it is destroyed or a TPK hapens!. What better way is there for the player to take vengence on the party that let the shadow get to him?!

good call, but then the other players start giving him puppy-dog eyes

I like the sound of the emancipated spawn, though i have no idea what it is. I'll go poke around.

 

[haakon1]

No - Create Spawn doesn't kill him. What kills him is Strength Damage (Su) - specifically, "A creature reduced to Strength 0 by a shadow dies."

He's already dead, some rounds before Create Spawn kicks in.

-Hyp.

Man, you gotta read closely. I just assumed being drained to Str 0 worked like being drained to Str 0 said in the DMG . . . oh well, I already ruled it, so it's law in my game. Shucks.

 

[MarkB]

IF yo uhave the right dragon mag, there are "shade" class, umbral class, etc., which are actually monster classes with levels but you could adapt this. a) Put dude in Hallowed temple. b) Have dude raised. c) Force dude to take the umbral/shade levels to reflect his part-shadowy status.

Here's an idea: Put him on hallowed ground, and let him survive and get Raised - but when he comes back to life he has no shadow. His shadow, in embryonic mid-transformation to unlife, was stripped from him as he entered the hallowed area. Later, it grows into a more powerful form of incorporeal undead, and must be defeated in order to return the PC to full strength and self.

 

[haakon1]

Sounds weak to me. I do not like fudging.

And at 1000+ GP for the spell, that's a lot of chocolate.

No problem with that. The Chapel's a thousand years old or more, one of several major religious sites in the area. (The module is The Standing Stone.) I know the folks that used to rule the area long, long ago would have cast it.

An interred dead body cannot become undead. So, this could be ruled to prevent him from turning into an undead, but he still dies. Otherwise, if he never dies, the spell never prevents him from turning into an undead. The spell only prevents turning into an undead creature if the creature is dead. It does nothing for if he is turned into an undead while alive.

Actually, he is supposed to be dead, if I read the SPECIAL rule for Shadow Str damage in the MM as opposed to the regular rule for Str damage in the DMG. Hypersmurf caught me on that.

Oh well, I already said he's alive (but helpless) until he spawns, and I'm not going to overrule myself.

Anyhow I figure the intent is "no undead can form on hallowed ground". With my earlier (incorrect) understanding of the rules being that he's incapacitated until he spawns, I'm ruling that hallowed ground keeps him from spawning and keeps him alive -- if they try it.

Changing the scenario AND changing how the spell actually works is a LOT of fudge.

How am I changing the scenario? As for changing the rules, other than my mistake about Str drain FROM a shadow killing (as opposed to normal Str drain per the DMG NOT killing), I don't think I'm changing much.

The argument about Hallow not allowing undead to form and the 'dead body' party being more an example than a limitation of the Founder Intent is one a good lawyer could slip by, I think. I'll interpret it that way because (a) it fits what I think the rule means, (b) mythology matters more to me than the RAW, and (c) I figure giving the player a break when the dice are too hot is no bad thing.

What good is it if the DM comes and saves the day? No challenge that.

I agree, in principle, but not so much in application. It's hard to resist the urge to save PC's.

My challenge to the players is that they have to think up a solution by midnight tomorrow, or the character dies.

Interestingly, the player himself -- who can't talk to the others, since his PC is down -- came up with yet another solution.

Again, assuming Str 0 is normal Str drain, not the Shadow killing kind, since I misread it.

His solution is an Enlarge spell, to get his Str above 0 so he can take an action, then wild shape so he can take Animal form. Create Spawn only works on humanoids, so QED.

That's pretty cheesy, I admit, but hey . . . I like creative players and give them a lot of slack with crazy solutions like this. We'll see if the others come up with either idea, or another hairbrained scheme.

 

[haakon1]

Especially if he knows that they could have dragged him 20 ft to the hallowed crypt and he wouldn't have had to face this mockery of his former life.

So here's a question -- if you inter someone in his position in hallowed ground, and then a few years later he's removed (or the place is no longer hallowed), does the undead transformation resume?

I'd say yes, unless he managed to somehow get Str above 0 in the meantime. As in, Raise Dead or Reincarnation would work within the hallowed ground (no Resurrection needed), and the victim wouldn't drop dead and spawn when he leaves.

But if removed/unhallowed while still dead or somehow alive but at Str 0, he'd spawn.

 

[haakon1]

Other Q's:
How intelligent is the ANIMAL companion to know to drag the dead PC to hallowed ground?

Int 2, so it has no clue.

How strict do you want to interpret "interned"?

Me? Like a 1960s judge. Others are more strict.

How does anyone (PC or Player) know that there is hallowed ground nearby to use this trick without it seeming to be DM fiat to 'save' a PC?

Nobody knows . . . they'll have to guess it and hope their right, and they have one more round/until midnight tomorrow (it's an email game) to try something.

I told them there's two solutions, that me and the player thought of different ones, and gave them some hints (my solution is religion/mythology inspired and think about the difference between why undead are undead versus what makes the dead rest in peace; his solution involves a druid power).

If they don't get it in time, the player will indeed control the shadow of his former PC . . .

 

[haakon1]

Here's an idea: Put him on hallowed ground, and let him survive and get Raised - but when he comes back to life he has no shadow. His shadow, in embryonic mid-transformation to unlife, was stripped from him as he entered the hallowed area. Later, it grows into a more powerful form of incorporeal undead, and must be defeated in order to return the PC to full strength and self.

This and the shade idea are both awesome.

Sorry to post so many times, but I'm very psyched.

I've wanted to do something with shades for years. Any idea what Dragon that's in? I do have some old first ediiton stuff on it -- 1e's Monster Manual 2, I believe.

It even makes sense in the campaign . . . they're pretty near (in Greyhawk) to the Vale of the Mage, and I decided long, long ago that the Mage of the Valley is immortal because he's a shade. So the likelihood of becoming one in this area mayhaps be higher . . .

 

[Arkhandus]

....Just how a Str 10 low-level character allowed himself to get slapped through the heart by a Shadow is beyond me. Or how a DM allowed the Shadow to get so close to the weakling without any chance of keeping it away or preoccupied by other creatures.

Shadows are CR 3 in 3E (maybe different in 3.5?), and have +2 Turn Resistance, so it'd take a high roll by a low-level cleric to turn them. But at least they'd have several chances, and would also be capable of driving them off with Cure Light or Cure Moderate spells. They'd also have access to Shield of Faith and Protection from Evil. All of which could help protect a PC or maim a Shadow.

The party's mage could've had Mage Armor, Protection from Evil, Cat's Grace, or Shield (for himself/herself anyway) to protect against such, and 1 or more Magic Missiles to harm the Shadow, perhaps Magic Weapon to imbue the melee guy's weapon with magic, allowing it a 50/50 chance of harming the Shadow (and the melee guy's the most likely one to survive one or two touches from a Shadow). Even with a standard party, a Shadow is tough to handle, since the party might not be prepared to face it (no Magic Weapon, Magic Missile, Mage Armor, Shield of Faith, or Protection from Evil spells ready, for instance). But at the very least, the cleric would have a chance of turning it, and thus allowing the PCs to run away.

The DMG specifically states that undead are given Challenge Ratings based on the assumption of an average party; 1 cleric, 1 rogue, 1 wizard or equivalent, and 1 fighter or equivalent. It specifically mentions expecting the party to have a cleric (and thus, access to significant anti-undead effects). You should always, ALWAYS, by the core rules, consider undead to have a higher Challenge Rating (or Encounter Level at least) if the PCs are lacking a critical part of the iconic archetypes, especially clerics or wizards/sorcerers.

This means you can expect a non-standard party, or a totally surprised and unprepared party, to treat a Shadow as a few CRs or ELs higher than normal, thus rendering it a likely-deadly encounter for very-low-level PCs. Slightly-low-level PCs should at least have been able to avoid getting their physically-weakest member seriously bushwhacked, by a Shadow, totally out of the blue. But these are all up the DM not going out of his way to kill the PCs or just throwing random monsters at them without any earlier consideration.



Sorry if it seems harsh, but I see too many DMs screw over their PCs just out of a total lack of planning or consideration. My own PCs included. It's stupid when a DM goes around slaughtering or ruining PCs at random just out of poorly-conceived preprations, and then has the gall to just say 'Oops, sorry. Oh well, too bad for you. Bye.' Especially when there was absolutely nothing the player did to warrant such screwing-over, and nothing they could've done to prevent it after it began, as in the case of your Shadow encounter I would be willing to bet. If a PC dies without having done something foolish or brazen to earn it, then fault must surely fall squarely on the DM's shoulders as a jerk, fool, or lazy bum. Acceptable somewhat with a novice DM, too inexperienced to have learned the ropes, but no one else.

 

[shilsen]

....Just how a Str 10 low-level character allowed himself to get slapped through the heart by a Shadow is beyond me. Or how a DM allowed the Shadow to get so close to the weakling without any chance of keeping it away or preoccupied by other creatures.

Huh? All you need is for the shadow(s) to surprise the PCs, which isn't difficult for a creature that makes no sound and is incorporeal. Shadow rises out of floor or steps out of wall to attack PCs. Bingo!

Shadows are CR 3 in 3E (maybe different in 3.5?), and have +2 Turn Resistance, so it'd take a high roll by a low-level cleric to turn them. But at least they'd have several chances, and would also be capable of driving them off with Cure Light or Cure Moderate spells. They'd also have access to Shield of Faith and Protection from Evil. All of which could help protect a PC or maim a Shadow.

What if the PCs were surprised and weren't expecting shadows? Shield of Faith and Prot. from Evil are both 1 min/lvl, so it's difficult to have them up unless expecting trouble immediately.

Sorry if it seems harsh, but I see too many DMs screw over their PCs just out of a total lack of planning or consideration. My own PCs included. It's stupid when a DM goes around slaughtering or ruining PCs at random just out of poorly-conceived preprations, and then has the gall to just say 'Oops, sorry. Oh well, too bad for you. Bye.' Especially when there was absolutely nothing the player did to warrant such screwing-over, and nothing they could've done to prevent it after it began, as in the case of your Shadow encounter I would be willing to bet. If a PC dies without having done something foolish or brazen to earn it, then fault must surely fall squarely on the DM's shoulders as a jerk, fool, or lazy bum. Acceptable somewhat with a novice DM, too inexperienced to have learned the ropes, but no one else.

Wow! Some DM really must have done a number on your PC(s).

PCs don't even die in my game, but I can see why what haakon1 described can happen without automatically calling him a jerk, fool or lazy bum.

Relax, already! It's just a game. In fact, it's just a game you're not even involved in (since I presume you're not in haakon1's group).