Need Clarification - Flat-Footed

[dcollins]

If you get to act in a surprise round, then you are not flat-footed.

 

[Aeson]

So, please let me know if this is correct:


The PC's enter a dungeon corridor and just around a corner, there are 6 bugbears on guard duty, expecting intruders. The party comes down the corridor not attempting to move silently, with the Dwarf clanking along like a Sherman tank. The bugbears hear and become aware. As their "surprise round" they draw weapons, move into defensive formation, etc. Now, the party turns the corner and sees them. Both sides roll for initiative. The PC Rogue beats the Bugbears on initiative. Are the Bugbears still flat-footed, since they were aware of the party and got a "surprise round" to prepare?

Or...

A Chimera is concealed in a room beyond an opening in the wall in the room the PC's are in. There is a tapestry blocking the opening, so the party does not see him. As his surprise round, he moves into the room the PC's are in, dramatically clawing the tapestry out of his way. Now the PC's roll for initiative and the Rogue beats the Chimera. Is the Chimera flat-footed until his initiative, even though he was aware of the party?

I need to know. The rules say that you are flat-footed until your first initiative in a "regular combat round." But they also specify several circumstances of when you are / are not flat-footed. These examples make it clear to me at least, that if you were aware first, then you get to act in the surprise round, as determined by the DM. Thus, you are not flat-footed after you act in the surprise round. These two interpretations conflict BADLY!!! Two of my players are on the side of the single sentence in the PHB that states the first interpretation (actions don't negate flat-footedness until the first regular combat round). Another player and I are in favor of the second interpretation (actions before the other side is aware count to avoid flat-footedness). With the first interpretation, the Rogue has become a combat machine in round 1, going master thrower and catching everything at its flat-footed AC, making it possible for the PC Fighter and Barbarian to take the opponent out almost as soon as they act.

Please help resolve this!

DM

I don't think your flat footed if your have surprise. You are ready for it but they act first.

 

[Tatsukun]

So, please let me know if this is correct:
[... removed to save space...]
Please help resolve this!

DM

I see the problem now. You forgot to include the surprise round in "regular combat". In the first case above, combat began when the bugbears took their surprise round (to arm themselves Etc.). They have now acted, so they are not flat footed when the PCs join the battle.

Same in the second, if you are able to act in a surprise round, you are acting in the battle and are not flat footed.

-Tatsu

 

[Coredump]

The PC's enter a dungeon corridor and just around a corner, there are 6 bugbears on guard duty, expecting intruders. The party comes down the corridor not attempting to move silently, with the Dwarf clanking along like a Sherman tank. The bugbears hear and become aware. As their "surprise round" they draw weapons, move into defensive formation, etc. Now, the party turns the corner and sees them. Both sides roll for initiative. The PC Rogue beats the Bugbears on initiative. Are the Bugbears still flat-footed, since they were aware of the party and got a "surprise round" to prepare?

The bugbears are 'in combat' already. They are aware of the PC's, they take an action to prepare, and then are holding their action (or readying) waiting for the PC's to round the corner. They have had "a chance to act" and thus are not flat footed.

A Chimera is concealed in a room beyond an opening in the wall in the room the PC's are in. There is a tapestry blocking the opening, so the party does not see him. As his surprise round, he moves into the room the PC's are in, dramatically clawing the tapestry out of his way. Now the PC's roll for initiative and the Rogue beats the Chimera. Is the Chimera flat-footed until his initiative, even though he was aware of the party?

[note: I would allow the Chimera a suprise round action besides tearing down the tapestry. (assuming it was a fairly easy action.) So if it moved 30' into the room, fine, but if it just ripped the curtain down, I would still let it attack.]

Again, the Chimera has had a 'chance to act', and thus is not flatfooted. The rogue cannot 'beat' the chimera, since the chimera has already acted.





I went and re-read the rules. And yes, if I squint in a dark room and hold the book at just the right angle...I can see the point your players are making. Not that they are intending it, but it comes across as sever rules lawyering.

They want. "You have no idea the chimera is there, it tears down the tapestry, totally surprising you, and runs into the room." then "But since you rolled well, I guess somehow it is now unable to act so you can sneak attack it" Yeah, like that makes any sense.