Need clarification on total damage from a charge with lots of modifiers

[MerakSpielman]

You're right....

The Charge Action does not specifically state this.

I thought it did, since all other feats that give bonuses or pelalties to an attack or AC last the entire round. I mean, it didn't make a lot of sense, but that's just the way I thought it was.

Also a warning: If he has cleave/great cleave, he gets to use all the same bonuses for them as he does on the attack that dropped the monster, so these bonuses he's getting could extend beyond the unlucky recipients of his charges.

A reminder: This combo is too good for NPCs not to have thought of it.

 

[DanMcS]

Thanks, this is exactly what I was confused about. However, you add multipliers, not multiply them, right? So, wouldn't x2+x3 be x5, not quadruple?

No. Think of it this way: base damage is 'A'. x2 is A (+A). x3 is A (+2A). But you can only count the original 'A' once, so x2 and x3 combine to be A (original) +A (from x2) +2A (from x3), total is 4A.

 

[danielinthwolvesden]

X2 and X3 = X4, not X5. No, really.

And you do have a problem- when combining too many sources, you can get a mix-maxed monster like this.

Explain "power lunge" to me?

Who is casting those two cleric spells on him? How long do they last? Lions charge lasts only minutes per level, and since he is not a cleric, he can't have Rightous Might. Note the line from Savage Species "However, a DM might want to keep the spells in this book more under the control of monsters...". Just don't allow that spell. Simple. Nor can all spells be made into magic tiems, especially those with "self only" targets on non-casters. That's why you just can't buy "boots of Exped retreat" instead of the much more expensive "boots of S&L". Don't allow such an item- unless maybe for clerics only. A potion, maybe. Scrolls, sure.

Hmm, do the +'s to Str from Bulls Str & Rage stack?

And AFAIK, you need to have a magic +1 weapon to add "keen" to it, or any other enhancement. The +2 from being adamant doesn't cut it- IMHO. (and hey Dm's- do you allow the +2 for Adamant weapons to cut thru damage resistance?)

However, yes, if the players get to know there is a combat, and can "spell up" with short term spells just before the big battle, they can be devastating. Note that a good "dispel magic" can screw this up big time!

 

[Kershek]

Yes, he has cleave, but I don't think great cleave got the cut. He will be taking Power Critical, however (automatic crit threat once per day). So that means that, when they come to a main bad guy, he basically gets an automatic crit with all those bonuses and will probably take down most any creature in their challenge level on the first round (and, of course, cleave into another who happens to be near).

This seems anti-climactic to me, but he doesn't think so. His response would be something like, "it's great! It's the culmination of good feat choices and smart playing to take out the main threat as quickly as possible!"

 

[MerakSpielman]

...only to find out that he jsut used up his super-duper combo on an illusion of the BBEG...

Or the BBEG has Mirror Image, Invisibility, Greater Dispel Magic, Wall of Force (always a goodie!), etc...

Now, what would happen in this particular character was Dominated (min/max a vampire with the vamp PrC (lifedrinker?) from BoVD) and sent back to attack his companions, eh?


If you want this sort of (though I dread to use the term) munchkinistic power level, that's fine, but just remember to min/max ALL of the NPC opponents. Use your own party for inspiration on what sorts of deadly tactics to use. Use the smackdowns on this very board for ideas. Min/Max an enemy archer or spellcaster with Improved Invisibility, Fly, and perhaps Dimension Door.

Open up a few cans of Whoop-Arse on their sorry hides.

 

[Piratecat]

And that's a very good point on Righteous Might! I think his next item will be one with Righteous Might in it, then. He was mentioning something about a fighting tabard (vest slot).

A command word-activated tabard of righteous might costs 81,000 gp (1800x5x9). Personally, I'd increase the cost a bit to reflect its effectiveness.

 

[Kershek]

X2 and X3 = X4, not X5. No, really.

And you do have a problem- when combining too many sources, you can get a mix-maxed monster like this.

They enjoy it, which is fine, though it can make it difficult for me to present sufficient challenges without overwhelming them.

Explain "power lunge" to me?

It's in Sword & Fist. It says that a successful attack roll during a charge allows you to inflict double your normal strength modifier.

Who is casting those two cleric spells on him? How long do they last? Lions charge lasts only minutes per level, and since he is not a cleric, he can't have Rightous Might. Note the line from Savage Species "However, a DM might want to keep the spells in this book more under the control of monsters...". Just don't allow that spell. Simple. Nor can all spells be made into magic tiems, especially those with "self only" targets on non-casters. That's why you just can't buy "boots of Exped retreat" instead of the much more expensive "boots of S&L". Don't allow such an item- unless maybe for clerics only. A potion, maybe. Scrolls, sure.

They have a 9th level cleric of Kord with them. Bull's Strength lasts 9 hours. It's true that he can't have Righteous Might cast on him - that issue has been resolved.

If there are self-only items available in the DMG, it will be difficult to convince them that this particular one isn't. After all, it will be said that I'm just trying to short-change a particularly good combo idea. And yes, we already allow personal items as potions (such as potions of true strike). The only limitation is that you'll never find it in a market; you have to create them yourself.

The mention about the spells being used by monsters only is interesting - I didn't know that since I don't own the book personally. I will take that into consideration and talk to them about it.

Hmm, do the +'s to Str from Bulls Str & Rage stack?

Yes. Rage is an unnamed bonus and Bull's Strength is an enhancement bonus.

And AFAIK, you need to have a magic +1 weapon to add "keen" to it, or any other enhancement. The +2 from being adamant doesn't cut it- IMHO. (and hey Dm's- do you allow the +2 for Adamant weapons to cut thru damage resistance?)

Yes, it is also a +1 magic weapon.

Yes, the +2 inherit bonus from adamantine does cut through DR.

However, yes, if the players get to know there is a combat, and can "spell up" with short term spells just before the big battle, they can be devastating. Note that a good "dispel magic" can screw this up big time!

Very true. They recently had a battle with a hellcat with which they were unprepared and got into trouble. Their next encounter with two hellcats was much different: use of See Invisibility by their owl familiar and wizard, flour balls (used like tanglefoot bags for throwing purposes), and readied attacks allowed Dench to take one of them out with only one hit (a crit), and then another went down in two IIRC.

They are going through the WotC adventure path, btw.

 

[Deset Gled]

Aside from the problems mentioned above (multipliers and Righteous Might), here's a couple of ideas to lessen the use of this tactic:

The easiest solution that comes to mind is to put him in situations where he can't charge. Any battle that takes place on complex terrain, has some fun obstacles, or just a large number of combatants could put an end to charging rather quickly. This is probably the best option, because it's likely he'll still manage to get into position to charge at least once per battle if he tries hard enough (and you don't make things too dificult), so you won't be completely killing his tactics, just keeping them in check.

Also, since Headlong Rush results in AoOs, you could try having the enemy grapple, trip, or disarm him when he tries to charge. It might be a little difficult with his stats, but it should work at least some of the time. Size modifiers could help a lot.

Variation on types of enemies could help as well (anything that flies, something immune to crits, etc etc). Use sparingly though, or players might start to feel hosed.

Also, though he does have that item that helps saves a lot, it doesn't sound like his reflex save is going to be that amazing. A few spells or tactics to tangle up his feet might go a long way.

This might not address the question directly asked, but I hope it helps.

 

[Kershek]

A command word-activated tabard of righteous might costs 81,000 gp (1800x5x9). Personally, I'd increase the cost a bit to reflect its effectiveness.

Knowing him, he'll probably make it usable once per day to cut the costs. That would make it 16,200 gold or 8,100 gold to make. Or double it for twice per day.

I'd have to take a look at how to increase that without him thinking it's being priced high just to penalize him.

 

[Kershek]

...only to find out that he jsut used up his super-duper combo on an illusion of the BBEG...

Or the BBEG has Mirror Image, Invisibility, Greater Dispel Magic, Wall of Force (always a goodie!), etc...

Now, what would happen in this particular character was Dominated (min/max a vampire with the vamp PrC (lifedrinker?) from BoVD) and sent back to attack his companions, eh?


If you want this sort of (though I dread to use the term) munchkinistic power level, that's fine, but just remember to min/max ALL of the NPC opponents. Use your own party for inspiration on what sorts of deadly tactics to use. Use the smackdowns on this very board for ideas. Min/Max an enemy archer or spellcaster with Improved Invisibility, Fly, and perhaps Dimension Door.

Open up a few cans of Whoop-Arse on their sorry hides.

Very good suggestions. IIRC, he wanted to get an item with protection from evil so that wouldn't have to worry about domination and summoned evil creatures touching him.

I also don't want them to think I'm crafting creatures that hit all their weaknesses specifically. That can get old fast.