Need clarification on total damage from a charge with lots of modifiers

[Kershek]

Ok, in my game there's a 9th level Half Orc Barbarian named Dench who is attacking for amazing amounts of damage. I asked him to break down a typical charge for me so I can evaluate his math. Below is his response. Can you please help me verify he's doing this properly?

Headlong rush is a feat from one of the new books that allows double damage from a charge.

And, with Lion's Charge (a new Wiz2 or Drd1 spell from one of the new books), he could do a charge plus a full attack in the first round.

He's not too worried about the AoO from the Power Lunge when he has about 139 hit points.

---
Ok here we go:
Weapon = +1 Keen Admat. Greataxe (always does +2 damage)
Dench's base Str is 20.
plus rage it's 24 (always +4 till I get greater rage)
plus bull's str it's 28 (+4 or +5 50% of the time).
plus rightous might it's 32 (always +4), weapon goes to 2d8, and gain reach.

Str at 20 is +5 with +50% from 2 handed weapon it's +7
Str at 24 is +7 ditto +10
Str at 28 is +9 ditto +13
Str at 32 is +11 ditto +16

From here on I'll do just Str at 28 and 32 since that is the most common.

Str 28 (+13),
Weapon at +3 (Greater Magic Weapon),
Power lunge (+9)
Power attack at +3.

= +13 + 3 +9 +3 = 1d12 +28 = ave of 35. (with headlong rush it's 70 points of damage)

Next; Str 32, weapon at +3, power lunge, power attack at +3.

= +16 +3 +11 +3 = 2d8 +33 = ave of 43 (with headlong rush it's 86 points of damage)

Now on a crit it's very nice. x3 from the above.
70 points goes to 210.
86 goes to 258.
Both of those are on ave rolls.

I hope this is clear.
---

 

[MerakSpielman]

...from one of the new books...

You don't even know what books he's using to get his feats and boosts? That feat/spell combo sounds a wee bit overpowered to me.

Look over the feat and spell very carefully and make sure he's not missing something (like, subject gets -6 to AC for 1 round, or can't attack next round, or this bonus applies only to damage, not to hit, or SOMETHING). Players sometimes are so wowed by the bonuses they're getting that they "forget" to notice the drawbacks of a feat or spell.

Also, he didn't give you the types of bonuses his different powerups give him. Remember, like types of bonuses don't stack.

edit: You mention Headlong rush, but he doesn't. You both mention Power Lunge, but don't say where it's from or what it does. It's giving him a +11 to damage by itself. ??? That's the equivelent of a +22 to strength!

edit edit: Ok, so he does mention headlong rush at the end. Does it double charge damage every time or just sometimes? 'Cause if it's every time, well, if you have 2 opponents 30' away from each other, he could just charge back and forth doing double damage each time forever. Sure, they'd get AoOs, but he'll last longer than they will with this combo.

 

[drnuncheon]

One thing I noticed is that he appears to be multiplying multipliers (double your strength, then double your damage - that winds up being 4x strength when it should be 3x under the D&D multiplier rules). Also, he's doubling, and then tripling from the crits.

Also, I think that the 2x strength from power lunge replaces the normal 1.5 str you get from a 2-handed weapon - but I'm not certain about that.

Assuming that I'm wrong about power lunge, his calculations should be like this:

Str 28 (+13), Weapon at +3 (Greater Magic Weapon), Power lunge (+9), Power attack at +3 =

+13 + 3 +3 = 1d12 +19, + 9 that has been doubled once from the power lunge.

With the headlong rush, that becomes 2d12+38+9 (avg dmg of 60)

With a crit, that becomes 4d12+76+9 (because a doubling plus a tripling equals a quadrupling in D&D) for avg dmg of 111.

Hope that helps!

Jeff

 

[Piratecat]

How is he casting righteous might? That's a 5th lvl clerical spell that's "personal" only; a cleric can't cast it on anyone else, and if he's getting it off of a magical item, it better not be a spell trigger.

EDIT - Dr Nuncheon beat me to it! Info about incorrect doubling removed.

 

[Kershek]

You don't even know what books he's using to get his feats and boosts? That feat/spell combo sounds a wee bit overpowered to me.

Yes, I know the books he's using - I was just too lazy to look them up. The books I'm talking about are Races of Faerun and Savage Species. I believe Lion's Charge is in Savage Species.

Look over the feat and spell very carefully and make sure he's not missing something (like, subject gets -6 to AC for 1 round, or can't attack next round, or this bonus applies only to damage, not to hit, or SOMETHING). Players sometimes are so wowed by the bonuses they're getting that they "forget" to notice the drawbacks of a feat or spell.

Lion's Charge says this:
You provide the subject with the powerful charging ability of the lion. When the subject charges, he can make a full attack in the same round.

(also, he wants to know if the +2 to the charge applies to his full attack)

Headlong Rush says this:
Provokes an attack of opportunity from all who threaten the path, including the target. Otherwise it's exactly like a normal charge. Deals double damage on a hit.

Also, he didn't give you the types of bonuses his different powerups give him. Remember, like types of bonuses don't stack.

They're all different bonii:
rage is unnamed
bull's strength is enhancement
righteous might is enlargement

edit: You mention Headlong rush, but he doesn't. You both mention Power Lunge, but don't say where it's from or what it does. It's giving him a +11 to damage by itself. ??? That's the equivelent of a +22 to strength!

edit edit: Ok, so he does mention headlong rush at the end. Does it double charge damage every time or just sometimes? 'Cause if it's every time, well, if you have 2 opponents 30' away from each other, he could just charge back and forth doing double damage each time forever. Sure, they'd get AoOs, but he'll last longer than they will with this combo.

Yes, it doubles charge damage every time. Yes, he will look forward to charging opponents every chance he gets. Yes, this is why I'm trying to make sure he's doing his math correctly.

Once he gets 4 or 5 attacks per round, doing this every round in combat he can will make melee combat rather pointless. If you're thinking of ways to stop him, keep in mind that he has the following helm made for him to help vision and will saves: +2 Resistance to all saves, "Blindsight" 2 times per day (1 hour each), +4 WILL save vs fear (morale bonus), COST:8500 market (4,250 to have wizard make).

 

[drnuncheon]

If you're thinking of ways to stop him, keep in mind that he has the following helm made for him to help vision and will saves: +2 Resistance to all saves, "Blindsight" 2 times per day (1 hour each), +4 WILL save vs fear (morale bonus), COST:8500 market (4,250 to have wizard make).

That seems suspiciously low. Did you remember to double the cost of the 2nd and 3rd powers?

J

 

[Kershek]

That seems suspiciously low. Did you remember to double the cost of the 2nd and 3rd powers?

First of all, the helmet takes up two slots - the visor with blindsight is one slot and the helmet is another. The helmet has two similar powers (will saves) so there's a reduction in price there (75% for second power). They are really calculated as two different items that are attached together. Plus, it's only usable twice per day at a very limited duration (compared to the hours per level blindsight normally gets).

Dench needs to make a MEA to lower the visor and activate blindsight.

 

[Kershek]

With a crit, that becomes 4d12+76+9 (because a doubling plus a tripling equals a quadrupling in D&D) for avg dmg of 111.

Hope that helps!

Thanks, this is exactly what I was confused about. However, you add multipliers, not multiply them, right? So, wouldn't x2+x3 be x5, not quadruple?

And that's a very good point on Righteous Might! I think his next item will be one with Righteous Might in it, then. He was mentioning something about a fighting tabard (vest slot).

 

[MerakSpielman]

I don't think you'd be out of line saying that the double charge damage from Headlong Rush only applies to the first attack.

Lion's Charge was obviously never intended to be combined with Headlong Rush.

And yes, the +2 charge bonus applies to all attacks he makes for one round, including AoOs. But that rule was also made assuming that the charger would only get 1 attack.

What's next? A feat to let you get your full attack if you regular-move? Lion's Charge is a silly feat.

 

[Kershek]

And yes, the +2 charge bonus applies to all attacks he makes for one round, including AoOs. But that rule was also made assuming that the charger would only get 1 attack.

Can you find a rule or clarification that states this, or is this opinion?

What's next? A feat to let you get your full attack if you regular-move? Lion's Charge is a silly feat.

Perhaps, but since all Wizards material is automatically accepted in our games (by overwhelming consensus), I do have to deal with it. I'm one of four DMs and we don't want different house rules between our games since that would be too confusing.