D&D 5E New D&D WotC survey! On classes.


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Weiley31

Legend
Honestly, I'm fine with most of 5E in regards to classes. I wish they would bring back the NEXT Sorcerer in some way or format. And maybe one or two changes to the Monk in general. Like not two of their Ki abilities requiring the use of your Bonus Actions (Patient Defense and Step of the Wind.)

I can also probably agree that all Classes should be able to get their Subclass choice AT Level One.


And just dump the PHB Ranger for the Revised Ranger OR offer it as a Variant choice since the current Ranger Subclasses wouldn't be too compatible with the Revised Ranger now that I think about it.
 


Honestly, I'm fine with most of 5E in regards to classes. I wish they would bring back the NEXT Sorcerer in some way or format. And maybe one or two changes to the Monk in general. Like not two of their Ki abilities requiring the use of your Bonus Actions (Patient Defense and Step of the Wind.)

I can also probably agree that all Classes should be able to get their Subclass choice AT Level One.


And just dump the PHB Ranger for the Revised Ranger OR offer it as a Variant choice since the current Ranger Subclasses wouldn't be too compatible with the Revised Ranger now that I think about it.
I want a way bigger overhaul of the monk, I would like to fix the name but none really work that are not multiple words.
 

Weiley31

Legend
And in regards to the complaints about the Paladin/Warlock/Sorcerer/Bard combos, well its just a nature of the beast that a Charisma casters seems to work together since they all rely upon one main stat. It doesn't help with the fact that a Paladin/Warlock combo is technically a better "Paladin" than a single classed Paladin. In regards to flavor like how a Sorclock can make any kind of sense or a Hexadin/whatever, I think the reflavoring/refluffing nature of 5E has had an effect on that.

A Sorclock could be a Sorcerer whose blood was somehow tainted or altered by "their" Patron, for whatever the reason, and now they have to figure out why or what effect this is going to have. In a situation like this, the Sorclock "doesn't have" a Patron per se, its just that "something" has taken an interest in said character and is going from there. The Hexadin/Paladin-Warlock combo is more of a "Witch Knight" and the Patron can be easily fluffed out with the Patron mechanics of the Warlock in that multi-class just handling the crunch. Heck, I think a Swordmage thread outside of this one even had the idea of making the Hexblade Warlock as a refluffed version basically.

The Cleric being refluffed as a "More Spell Caster" version of the Paladin makes sense in that regards and is something I've never considered, despite be being a big fluffer in regards to 5E and its aspects.

Also I don't know how anybody can't see Singing/Song Magic being able to change the world/cause magical effects. If singing is Mathematics, then Singing CAN do that as Reality Hacking IS Mathematics. In Destiny 2, you literally kill an Alien god with the use of a Spear that is composed entirely out of Math basically...........although said Alien god comes back to life as a Sniper Rifle later on after said boss fight.
 

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
It's statements like this as well as your whole "four attributes" schtick that cause @TwoSix and I to repeatedly recommend Shadow of the Demon Lord to you.
Yesterday I had an idea to remove the whole ''use X ability as spellcasting stat for X class'' with a Magic Score and Mods (a 7th ability score, if you will) that you roll once you gain the spellcasting/pact magic trait. Like in SotDL. Maybe with an ''extra ASI'' feature for the full spellcasters since they have 1 extra stat to buff.

On the other hand I already ran a game with a houserule that Warlock and Paladin used the DMG's Sanity and Honor ability for their features instead of CHA. That one was fun!

On the third other hand (!), one other way of doing it would be to have spells auto-hit (thus removing the spell attack mod) unless it requires a saving throw, but the casters need to pass an ability + skill check against a DC of 10 + spell level to cast it. (Wizard/Sorcerer/Warlock = Arcana, Cleric/Paladin = Religion, Druid/Ranger = Nature, Bard = Perform, all of then using the Skills with Other Ability Scores rule). Sure it allows Expertise in a spellcasting skill, but its not too bad since Expertise, if you dont allow Multiclass and Feats like I do, is pretty rare; only bards, knowledge cleric and AT could have expertise in their spellcasting skill.
 



Faolyn

(she/her)
And for all the high level necromancy spells? What if wizards had no spells but gained fireball as class ability? This game has an existing system for these sort of things, it is pointless to invent a parallel system that does the same thing.
Honestly, I don't actually even care about the idea of necromancers as their own class. But my idea was, if you really want a class that emphasizes a specific school of magic--whether necromancy, illusion, or any of the others--the idea that the things that make that school interesting should be built into the class and not dependent on spells. Since let's face it, the typical player is going to take whatever spells they can get, no matter the school, unless the DM has houseruled it to make it harder for you to learn magic outside of your specialty. So there's a couple of possibilities here:

Full caster. The class spells are more limited in scope, not broad like the wizard. The necromancer gets necromancy spells plus a handful of other spells. Because there's no reason why a necromancer needs fireball.

Half Caster. Spells up to 5th level. But all the really necromantic spells are built into the class. So a necromancer archetype built around manipulating life energy would get an innate ability to (perhaps) suck the life energy out of one creature (maybe even themselves), store it, and give it to someone else. This would mimic cure wounds/cause wounds and even heal/harm. A necromancer archetype built around undead would start being able to make undead early on--maybe even as soon as they take the archetype--and as they progress they can make better and better undead. So this sort of necromancer could make a ghoul at, say, 9th level where a standard wizard casting create undead would have to wait to 11th level. And an archetype built around manipulating souls would get some innate abilities that mimic spells like soul cage, but again with more options as they level up.

And you can also give them a warlock-style Mystic Arcanum so they can still take the less well-themed necromancy spells, like eyebite, which is necromancy only in the sense that it's spoooooky.
 


Yaarel

Mind Mage
it is more I have never heard of necromancer as a half caster as what would the other half be?

The other half of a halfcaster Necromancer would be magical class features that specialized in creating, controling, and becoming undead.



depends on the thematics as some are so hyper specialised that the whole game would have to be rebuilt to make the useable like a pyromancer other or so broad to be just magic which is so general it is a class, not a subclass.

D&D might need a "simple"- design mage, the magical equivalent of a Fighter Champion. The simple mage would only have a few spells that scaled while leveling. It would effectively have a superhero feel with only a handful of specific superpowers.

But the Necromancer is a more complex concept.



I think artificer I think clockwork devices like even early on davinci gliders and robotics and even later things like mechanical birds and such inspired by the Elric Saga.

For me the quintessential Artificer is the magic item creator, especially the archetype of the Norse dvergar. Because the dvergar personified curses, their magic items could overcome obstacles in a way that those of others couldnt.

Still the Artificer concept deserves a class with subclasses because there are different types of items and constructs and technologies.



And all the high level necromancy spells? What if wizards had no spells but gained fireball as class ability? This game has an existing system for these sort of things, it is pointless to invent a parallel system that does the same thing.

At least the necromantic archetypes that I am familiar with, they are less versatile than other mages. Indeed, they normally get one of the undead spirit to do any magical effects for them, instead of a tually knowing how to do the magic themselves. The necromancer is all about contacting and interacting with the undead.

Undead spirits (plural) could together be a Warlock patronage. But a fullcaster who knows many kinds of magic is more like someone who dabbles in necromancy rather than a specialist.

An Artificer who views undeath as a technology (similar to how a lich does) would traffic with both undead bodies and undead minds. The half casting of the Artificer makes sense for a specialist, and leaves design space to gain necromantic effects sooner, like an animated undead as the construct at level 1.

I would need to look at the Artificer features carefully to determine what is serviceable and what to swap out for a Necromancer. Conceptually, The Arificer is about right.
 
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CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
I honestly wouldn't mind if the Eldritch Knight Subclass was allowed to switch out their two school of magics, Abjuration and Evocation, to two other schools of magic of their choice.
Sounds like a great house-rule.

I've house-ruled the EK several times over the years. Once to remove the school restrictions entirely, and let the EK choose any spells the player wants. Another time, I houseruled it to allow its spells to be chosen from the Bard class list (for a "songblade" flavored fighter), and most recently I've house-ruled it to let the player use spells on the Warlock class list. It works fine.
 
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Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
Sounds like a great house-rule.

I've house-ruled the EK several times over the years. Once to remove the school restrictions entirely, and let the EK choose any spells the player watns. Another time, I houseruled it to allow its spells to be chosen from the Bard class list (for a "songblade" flavored fighter), and most recently I've house-ruled it to let the player use spells on the Warlock class list. It works fine.

Agreed. I feature that let's the player decides the spell lists (linked with the casting stat) is pretty awesome!
with some changes, it would make a perfect ''Fighter + X'' spellcaster subclass.

  • Give them the same Extra attack as the Bladesinger.
  • Allow Weapon Bond to be used as Focus.
  • Change Arcane Charge to something more generic; maybe cast another non-cantrip spells with Action Surge, or regain X slots when you second wind.
  • Improved War Magic could be replacing one extra attack for a leveled spell.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
Re the concept of "vampiric healing". It is undeath. It should never be actual healing. It is a pale imitation of life. Its mechanics should differ from healing. Vampiric healing is undead and nonliving. It is about animating a dead body, not restoring a living body.

Re the flavor.

The positive energy is a mystic source of conciousness, life, and success.

The (Deep) Shadowfell is low energy ether. Ghosts rest. A ghost would need to gain energy to enter the neutral (Shallow) ether to manifest lifelike in the material plane.

The (Deep) Feywild is also ether, but high energy, more than the material plane can normally contain.

Undead exist naturally, as aspects of a person resting in the Shadowfell. A restless undead is rare but famous. Often it is said, there is unfinshed business in the Material. Somehow this connection to the Material is literally energizing the ghost, that would normally be resting. In other words, they are utilizing positive energy, without processing it normally the way material living creatures do. Typically, the restless undead are minds, manifesting a virtual body ethereally as a ghost. A powerful mind can "haunt" the material persons or places that remain unfinished, influencing mentally or poltergeisting physically. The restless mind maintains a link to the corpse. Sometimes an exceptionally powerful can even animate ones dead body, whence the concept of a sentient undead. A vampire is such an example of a sapient corpse.

When a vampire sucks life energy from a living creature, there is no healing. The body is dead. There is nothing to heal, or that could heal. There is no cellular metabolism. But like a golem, the corpse moves around anyway.

Instead of the body gaining the positive energy to become whole, the vampire is energizing ethereally. Higher frequency ethereal energy means the vampire can avoid resting. The undead mind stays alert and manifest.

Thus vampiric energy gain is an addiction. The vampire depends on it to maintain material existence. Without it, the undead mind would rest, and the corpse collapse - as corpses normally do.

Vampiric "healing" is no healing. It is a pale imitation of life. It is a mental manifestation of a faint memory of what life was once like. Vampiric energizing is more like a quasi-real illusion of life.

Actually, the body of a vampire has zero hit points, being quite dead already. This material avatar of a vampiric ghost is made out of temporary hit points. To maintain these temporary hit points, the vampire must continually feed on the living, or else suffer one level of exhaustion each night if without feeding. When the temporary body dies of exhaustion or the temporary hit points run out, the body collapses. Then the vampire reverts to a ghost and loses the exceptional influence over the material plane. Nevertheless this ghost might still have unfinished business to attend to, is a powerful mind, and might reanimate ones corpse at some future time to manifest as a vampire once again.

While restless undead are freak occurances, they are natural in the sense that the multiverse functions this way. A necromancer is someone who researches and manipulates the magical processes that are in play during a restless undead manifestation event.
 
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Yaarel

Mind Mage
I want a way bigger overhaul of the monk, I would like to fix the name but none really work that are not multiple words.
A generic name for a Monk is "Athlete", focusing on the prowress of the body. The classic D&D Monk becomes a subclass of Athlete, and most of its features relocate to the subclass, leaving the base class Athlete with more design space for other concepts.

The Athlete can handle nonmagical subclasses (like brawler) and magical subclasses (like Avatar The Last Airbender). As well as various kinds of low armor skirmishers, mixed martial artists, fightsportists, and unarmed combatants. Even the magical and nonmagical Ranger could be Athlete subclasses.

The normal D&D Rogue makes a surprisingly historically accurate ninja. Perhaps an Athlete subclass can handle a mythologically accurate magical ninja whence Shadow Monk.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
A generic name for a Monk is "Athlete", focusing on the prowress of the body. The classic D&D Monk becomes a subclass of Athlete, and most of its features relocate to the subclass, leaving the base class Athlete with more design space for other concepts.

The Athlete can handle nonmagical subclasses (like brawler) and magical subclasses (like Avatar The Last Airbender). As well as various kinds of low armor skirmishers, mixed martial artists, fightsportists, and unarmed combatants. Even the magical and nonmagical Ranger could be Athlete subclasses.

The normal D&D Rogue makes a surprisingly historically accurate ninja. Perhaps an Athlete subclass can handle a mythologically accurate magical ninja whence Shadow Monk.
Advanced 5e:Level Up went with Adept.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
For me the quintessential Artificer is the magic item creator, especially the archetype of the Norse dvergar. Because the dvergar personified curses, their magic items could overcome obstacles in a way that those of others couldnt.
Hmmm Enchanter, Rune Smith, Clockwork Engineer
 

An Artificer who views undeath as a technology (similar to how a lich does) would traffic with both undead bodies and undead minds. The half casting of the Artificer makes sense for a specialist, and leaves design space to gain necromantic effects sooner, like an animated undead as the construct at level 1.
Yeah, I'm on board with this kind of view of the necromancer. I would say that I'd like to make such a necromancer get, for lack of a better word, weirder at higher levels rather than just have the base concept scale. Like a low level necromancer might be doing the standard grave digging, zombie raising type stuff, but a high level necromancer should be working more with souls than flesh, transplanting dead souls into new bodies (living or dead), creating gestalt beings from the scraps of multiple souls and at the highest levels even creating entirely new souls with varying results depending on what raw material they use to craft them. A high level necromancer should look nothing like a high level wizard, ability-wise.
 

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