D&D 5E New D&D WotC survey! On classes.

[CleverNickName]

Okay, okay...I'll level with you guys.

I don't have a problem with bards, at least not as big of a problem as @Snarf Zagyg has, anyway. I think that "sound magic" can work really well in a heroic fantasy setting. I imagine things like the Wishsong from the Heritage of Shannara series of books. I imagine the bells that the Abhorsen uses in Sabriel. I imagine the shouts that the Dragonborn uses in The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim.

But nobody ever wants to play one of those. It's always the same smarmy class clown with the same stats, the same cantrip, the same proficiencies, and the same rapier. So my problem isn't necessarily with the Bard class; it's with the Bard trope. And it's not their fault; the game mechanics for the bard expect a specific way of playing it...and for all the talk about "versatility" and "jack of all trades," there are few incentives to reward deviating from that expectation.

 

[Scribe]

So my problem isn't necessarily with the Bard class; it's with the Bard trope. And it's not their fault; the game mechanics for the bard expects a specific way of playing it...and for all the talk about "versatility" and "jack of all trades," there are few incentives to reward deviating from that expectation.

I think this is fair, but I think the same 'its solved' could be leveled at more than Bards?

 

[CleverNickName]

I think this is fair, but I think the same 'its solved' could be leveled at more than Bards?

Oh I agree. There are plenty of D&D classes that have become little more than clichés. The bard just happens to be the most odious to me.

 

[Bardic Dave]

Okay, okay...I'll level with you guys.

I don't have a problem with bards, at least not as big of a problem as @Snarf Zagyg has, anyway. I think that "sound magic" can work really well in a heroic fantasy setting. I imagine things like the Wishsong from the Heritage of Shannara series of books. I imagine the bells that the Abhorsen uses in Sabriel. I imagine the shouts that the Dragonborn uses in The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim.

But nobody ever wants to play one of those. It's always the same smarmy class clown with the same cantrip, the same proficiencies, and the same rapier. So my problem isn't necessarily with the Bard class; it's with the Bard trope. And it's not their fault; the game mechanics for the bard expect a specific way of playing it...and for all the talk about "versatility" and "jack of all trades," there are few incentives to reward deviating from that expectation.

I’ll just chime in to say that bards are my favourite class, and I have played/DMed for/seen others play a lot of bards in my day. I’ve never played into the so-called classic bard trope and only seen one character that matched that trope.

My experience may not be typical, but I just thought I’d add it to the discussion. There are some people out there playing bards differently (maybe I just happen to know all of them! )

 

[Yaarel]

Consider a mythologicaly accurate Celtic bard, Taliesin. If I recall correctly his shapechanging duel, this story might be where the slot-9 spell Shapechange originates from. In D&D terms, he is a high tier full caster Bard. As far as I know, he doesnt need a musical instrument to spellcast, but he does verbally poeticize.

 

[Yaarel]

Huh. I'd like for them to give us an actual spellcasting paladin. To date I don't think I've seen a paladin cast a spell. All the slots go to smiting.

5e already has a full caster Paladin: Cleric whose cosmic force is an oath.

 

[Maxperson]

5e already has a full caster Paladin: Cleric whose cosmic force is an oath.

Not the same.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

But nobody ever wants to play one of those. It's always the same smarmy class clown with the same stats, the same cantrip, the same proficiencies, and the same rapier. So my problem isn't necessarily with the Bard class; it's with the Bard trope. And it's not their fault; the game mechanics for the bard expect a specific way of playing it...and for all the talk about "versatility" and "jack of all trades," there are few incentives to reward deviating from that expectation.

Its because of their lame proficiencies and crappy cantrips. Its make it pretty hard to do a Str-based bard. You have to go the Dex route because even a Valor bard does not gain its medium armor and shield until level 3.
They also lack any bard battle spells they had in earlier editions: battle hymn, sonic weapon, allegro, bladeweave, cacophonic shield, etc

I give my bards shield and medium armor, like the cleric and the druid. The valor archetype gains the martial weapons and a fighting style.

And from now on, the valor bard will also gain the ''when you cast a spell on an ally, they can make an attack'' from the Order cleric at X level.

 

[grimslade]

I think you could argue that there are two Ur-classes: Fighting-Man and Magic-User.

Fighting-Man gives d10 HD, Bonus attack at 5th, access to fighting style
Magic-User gives d6 HD, half caster progression, ritual casting

The next level down would introduce classes.
A player makes a Fighting-Man and chooses the Barbarian and gains an HD increase of one die and rage related abilities.
A player could also make a Magic-User and choose the Barbarian and gains an HD increase and rage related abilities.
Subclasses come in to fill out the class.
You want a 3E barbarian. Fighting-Man > Barbarian > Berserker but what if you want the rage to be expressed by overclocked casting primal shaman? Magic-User > Barbarian > Shaman sub clas to add the other half caster. Or swap the sub-class abilities and the class abilities.
The classes are siloed too much and it hurts the development of the game. If D&D is to have a more evergreen edition, it needs to be able to add new elements without tripping over the little barriers the developers erected to maintain the illusion of being the same 50 years later.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I have busted rolled stats and I still find my Stunning Strike failing to do anything most of the time.

Half the time the target is not worth spending a stunning strike on them when I can fall them in one or two turns, and the other half of the time the enemy has Legendary Resistance and all I'm doing is getting myself stuck next to a dragon just so I can spend their resistance.... IF they fail their saving throw.

The one time we were fighting against a few 'Elites' type enemies, they were Fighter types with strong CON...

I think I got maybe 1 stun off so far.

This is just so vastly opposite to my experience with monks I have to wonder what is fundamentally different about our games, because something has to be.

I rarely use Stunning Strike with the Monk I play, but when I do (usually when fighting a glass cannon or similar) it makes a huge difference. Most of the time he’s just a melee guy with 3 or 4 attacks most rounds with a d6 weapon, that never has to resort to second-tier tactics because he can always get to the enemy. Having a custom weapon (spiked chain, monk weapon Bc Tashas, whip with versatile d6) makes him shine even brighter, but that’s a recent thing, and he’s always been wildly effective. No tightrope required. Hell, he’s got a decent Int. I’ve played a couple monks, one had a rapier, another had a quarter staff, and all of them kicked ass.

I also watch/listen to a lot of actual plays and Monks pretty much always wreck face, and get “dude monks are so crazy good” comments during play.