D&D 5E New D&D WotC survey! On classes.

Aldarc

Legend
Regarding the arcane spell schools, they are inconsistent kinds of categories, and less useful for organizing spells. No other gaming mechanics should depend on them. Anything that depends on the schools will likewise become an inconsistent mess.

Consider the schools Abjuration, Transmutation, and Necromancy. One category is a purpose, an other is a process, and an other is a theme. Any spell could show up in any category. The schools organize spell lists less well than other organizational systems, such as psionic disciplines and divine domais that are both mainly thematic and can be used to organize all spells coherently by theme.
It also feels that the themes and processes for spell traditions are repeatedly broken for the sake of creating loopholes in earlier iterations of the game - e.g., a conjuration/transmutation spell that is effectively an evocation attack spell that the Conjurer/Transmuter can cast, etc. - and these oddities have been preserved mostly for the sake of tradition than consistentcy. Not to mention the bizarre refusal by WotC to make healing a type of Necromancy.
 

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I can't agree that a Necromancer class would fit the way 5e does things. Largely because it's almost perfect both thematically and mechanically for a sorcerer subclass, especially if necromancers get their own metamagic options thrown in both to optionally necromancy-theme spells like mage armour for a bonus, and to tweak the undead they summon way past the realms of animate dead. The big wizard gimmick is breadth.
I don't think even Sorcerers have the design space and I am once again referring people to Worlds Without Number's Necromancer or alternatively, to Gideon the Ninth.

Sorcerer would be fine if it had more design space though. A half-caster like Artificer might be a better base, but Artificer's theme and base abilities conflict with Necromancy. OR DO THEY?!?! You might actually be able to do a decent Necromancer as an Artificer subclass. It would be kind of a specific Necromancer, not an all-purpose one like a class could be, but it could do a much better job than Wizard Necromancer.
 
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The trouble with this bit is that it throws out the action economy. The summoned undead should be area effect debuffers or something like Spirit Guardian but not centred on the necro.
Yeah I'm aware, they don't have to be actual attackers with separate statlines and stuff (beyond the one permanent one), and this is why I'm saying separate class, because then you can meld the class in such a way that the action economy works with what they've got.
 


ph0rk

Friendship is Magic, and Magic is Heresy.
The level of detail on this survey is bordering on something people should be paid for. It's practically a consultation.
Usually when a survey takes more than 5-10 minutes (as this one does) without an incentive, people just stop halfway and you have tons of nonresponse bias to address (they lack the extra detail about respondents to address it).
 

Aldarc

Legend
Yeah I'm aware, they don't have to be actual attackers with separate statlines and stuff (beyond the one permanent one), and this is why I'm saying separate class, because then you can meld the class in such a way that the action economy works with what they've got.
I imagine that it would not be too difficult to simply have minions work akin to temporary spell effects like Spirit Guardians, Evard's Tendrils, etc.
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
I imagine that it would not be too difficult to simply have minions work akin to temporary spell effects like Spirit Guardians, Evard's Tendrils, etc.
My only conceptual concern would be if somebody raised an actual zombie (similar to other zombies my character had encountered) they would expect to be able to target/combat that creature.

It could work, just something to take into account I reckon.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I gave up on the survery after 30%. I did barbarian, bard, cleric, druid and I said this thing is taking too much time.
 




I don't think even Sorcerers have the design space and I am once again referring people to Worlds Without Number's Necromancer or alternatively, to Gideon the Ninth.

Sorcerer would be fine if it had more design space though. A half-caster like Artificer might be a better base, but Artificer's theme and base abilities conflict with Necromancy. OR DO THEY?!?! You might actually be able to do a decent Necromancer as an Artificer subclass. It would be kind of a specific Necromancer, not an all-purpose one like a class could be, but it could do a much better job than Wizard Necromancer.
I feel I don't really agree with your vision of necromancer. To me it seems completely absurd to suggest that they would not be full casters.
 

I don't think even Sorcerers have the design space and I am once again referring people to Worlds Without Number's Necromancer or alternatively, to Gideon the Ninth.

Sorcerer would be fine if it had more design space though. A half-caster like Artificer might be a better base, but Artificer's theme and base abilities conflict with Necromancy. OR DO THEY?!?! You might actually be able to do a decent Necromancer as an Artificer subclass. It would be kind of a specific Necromancer, not an all-purpose one like a class could be, but it could do a much better job than Wizard Necromancer.
fundamentally what people want is a full caster who is good, question what bits of necromancer is best as spells and which are best as abilities?
and what stuff do we just make a feat?
 

I don't think even Sorcerers have the design space and I am once again referring people to Worlds Without Number's Necromancer or alternatively, to Gideon the Ninth.

Sorcerer would be fine if it had more design space though. A half-caster like Artificer might be a better base, but Artificer's theme and base abilities conflict with Necromancy. OR DO THEY?!?! You might actually be able to do a decent Necromancer as an Artificer subclass. It would be kind of a specific Necromancer, not an all-purpose one like a class could be, but it could do a much better job than Wizard Necromancer.
Sorcerers have a lot more design space than people normally realise, and there are between one and three subclasses that even attempt to use it. The divine sorcerer, the clockwork soul (which I'd need to see in play), and the Aberrant Mind which is a full bore psion. Limiting the size of spell lists in reality really expands what can be done with the sorcerer and warlock because they don't have the ability to do everything.
 

Limiting the size of spell lists in reality really expands what can be done with the sorcerer and warlock because they don't have the ability to do everything.
I agree, particularly re: Warlock.

The problem is the Sorcerer has two big features you can't get rid of:

1) Metamagic. This is basically a trash feature for a Necromancer. You'd want to ditch it. You can't, because it's in the base class.

2) Can cast tons and tons of spells per day. Basically as many as a Wizard or more. That's where almost all the raw power of the class is.

You don't need the latter for a Necromancer, nor do you need Full Caster. And Sorcerer's base, unalterable spell list isn't very Necromancer-oriented, being basically "Flashy Magic".

You could probably come up with some elaborate system for expending spell slots to do Necromantic stuff, but it'd be a kludge and half.
 

I feel I don't really agree with your vision of necromancer. To me it seems completely absurd to suggest that they would not be full casters.
That seems like a weird viewpoint. I guess you think all magic in D&D has to go via spell slot? And other people than Necromancers should have access to all the magic the Necromancer does? And full caster also suggests a broad spell list.

All of which flies in the face of virtually all other portrayals of Necromancers in fantasy fiction - and Necromancers are OFTEN portrayed in fantasy fiction, unlike, say, Clerics.
 

That seems like a weird viewpoint. I guess you think all magic in D&D has to go via spell slot? And other people than Necromancers should have access to all the magic the Necromancer does? And full caster also suggests a broad spell list.

All of which flies in the face of virtually all other portrayals of Necromancers in fantasy fiction - and Necromancers are OFTEN portrayed in fantasy fiction, unlike, say, Clerics.
okay, can you define the necromancer archetype so we can see each other's position?
 

That seems like a weird viewpoint. I guess you think all magic in D&D has to go via spell slot?
Most of it yes. Also, necromancer is explicitly a magician, they cast spells. And in D&D people who are full time magicians are full casters. Waht you seem to be talking about is more like some sort of death knight, a necromantic version of paladin.

And other people than Necromancers should have access to all the magic the Necromancer does?
Not necessarily. There can be bespoke spells for classes and subclasses.

And full caster also suggests a broad spell list.
Again, not necessarily. But then again, I don't necessarily think that being a necromancer means that you're casting necromancy spells only.

All of which flies in the face of virtually all other portrayals of Necromancers in fantasy fiction - and Necromancers are OFTEN portrayed in fantasy fiction, unlike, say, Clerics.
What portrayals?
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
...and the Aberrant Mind which is a full bore psion.
I feel the same way. It looks like a psion, feels like a psion, and casts like a psion (even moreso if you use the Spell Points rule in the DMG). The only thing it's missing is a silent P in the name...and that's apparently a deal-breaker for lots of folks.

(re: necromancers portrayed in fantasy fiction)

What portrayals?
One of my favorites:
1630172598661.png
 

I agree, particularly re: Warlock.

The problem is the Sorcerer has two big features you can't get rid of:

1) Metamagic. This is basically a trash feature for a Necromancer. You'd want to ditch it. You can't, because it's in the base class.
Not so. What you need is some sort of Necromantic Metamagic that, for example, lets the necromancer animate more, bigger, or smarter dead than usual or to throw necrotic fireballs or turn mage armour into bone armour.
2) Can cast tons and tons of spells per day. Basically as many as a Wizard or more. That's where almost all the raw power of the class is.
Which get soaked for a necromancer by things like Animate Dead.
You don't need the latter for a Necromancer, nor do you need Full Caster.
That is very much debatable.
And Sorcerer's base, unalterable spell list isn't very Necromancer-oriented, being basically "Flashy Magic".
When literally half the spell you know are tailored for a necromancer (seriously, the Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul give two known spells per level) then that doesn't matter so much.
 

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