New Design article: Elves

[Av3rnus]

Just another random thought...

We're still looking at this in a vacuum. We have no idea what other changes might've inspired the change in the eladrin. If alignment is becoming less of a factor, for instance, there might be no purpose to having multiple celestial types. The bralani and ghaele might just be types of angels.

Or, consider this possibility. Perhaps the eladrin known to dwell amongst mortals are simply the weakest of their kin, the fey that interact most frequently with the material plane. In other worlds, places with strange names like Arcadia and Arborea, far more alien eladrin, with powers beyond those comprehensible to mortals and strange titles like "ghaele" and "bralani," are said to dwell.

This allows for both the PC eladrin and the more potent ones who--except for being "fey" rather than "outsiders"--still serve more or less the same purpose in the multiverse.

Not that I think that's actually what's happening (though it might be cool if it was), but my point is, we lack anything even vaguely approaching context for this (or any other) change.

You know, the more I think about, the less surprised I would be if we no longer see "outsiders" in 4e. After all, why can't we just have "fey" and say that some make their home in the material world while others make their home on other planes?

In fact, given the talk about alignment crunch going away, I'd think some things have to change here - no more 'evil outsider bane' weapons and such - so maybe we'll get ourselves a new taxonomy.

That said, I like the new background on elves. Definitely seems more fitting for them. It should also give any half-elves a more important role as liaisons. And I've never given much thought to the eladrins before, so I'm pretty much ok with the change there.

 

[sirwmholder]

What I got out of the article mentioned above...

The Eladrin killed the Grey Elves and High Elves and took their stuff... therefore losing their extraplanar sub-type and celestial connections.

Looks like 4th edition is cleaning house... and every race, subrace and planar origin will be looked at and reworked to make one cohesive setting with everything in it... I want to see more... much more before I rush to judgement.

William Holder

 

[Kae'Yoss]

"No Sir, I don't eat meat"

Doesn't say anything about that. They don't cut living trees. They don't seem reluctant to cut living meatbags.

They probably eat the meat of anyone stupid enough to annoy them.

 

[sirwmholder]

On another note... someone mentioned this before... but I sincerely hope that creature types do get reworked... Outsider is the only category based on where you live/ where you are born rather than what you are. I think there is a lot of room for improvement on that front.

William Holder

 

[Simia Saturnalia]

On another note... someone mentioned this before... but I sincerely hope that creature types do get reworked... Outsider is the only category based on where you live/ where you are born rather than what you are. I think there is a lot of room for improvement on that front.

William Holder

Arrrrg, yes please, though I'm less opposed to Outsider. "Not of this flesh" is a demonic/angelic trope I can get behind, though I'll accept them being [Extra-Planar] something-or-others, or whatever the 4e equivalent is.

Requiring a whole new creature for the drow to have trainable giant spiders was weak, however. Ease up on vermin.

I wonder if the new emphasis on roles in play will shape the creature types, and I find myself thinking it must end up doing so. Is there a reason animals, beasts, magical beasts, and vermin need to be different? Nah, they're all beasts (or so my PCs call them) and all you need is penalties to Handle Animal (or equivalent) for being unnatural.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Actually, I like it ... but I'm disappointed that there's no crunch.

Crunch would really have been appreciated.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

On another note... someone mentioned this before... but I sincerely hope that creature types do get reworked... Outsider is the only category based on where you live/ where you are born rather than what you are. I think there is a lot of room for improvement on that front.

If you know a better name for outsiders, out with it! The concept does warrant a different type: They're creatures composed of ideals, not of flesh and blood.

Giants could be done away with it. The only difference between a giant and a monstrous humanoid is size, and sometimes, not even that.

 

[Mercule]

It does make a bit of sence in the "points of light" model. This time the 'Elder race' is divorced from the material world. They have thier degenerate off-shoot, the elves, living in the material world, while their great empire lies Elsewere. The real world can slip into decay since 'the Uber Race' is too distant to save it.

And that is one of the major conceits of my current homebrew.

Prediction for elves' racial abilities:

*+2 Dex, -2 Int
*Reroll perception checks
*Proficient in sword and bow
*+4 to defense scores vs. fey magic
*+1 CL for spells with the Plant or Animal descriptors
*Access to the Evasion and Nature Sense talent trees
*Stealth, Perception, and Survival are always class skills

My prediction is a racial talent tree that allows you to choose a +2 to either Dex or Wis at first level. As you advance, you can choose from amongst your various options to gain a +2 to the other, further increase your original choice, gain evasion, learn a couple of neat tricks with bow or sword, or some other abilities that work particularly well with the ranger or druid classes.

 

[freyar]

Or, consider this possibility. Perhaps the eladrin known to dwell amongst mortals are simply the weakest of their kin, the fey that interact most frequently with the material plane. In other worlds, places with strange names like Arcadia and Arborea, far more alien eladrin, with powers beyond those comprehensible to mortals and strange titles like "ghaele" and "bralani," are said to dwell.

This allows for both the PC eladrin and the more potent ones who--except for being "fey" rather than "outsiders"--still serve more or less the same purpose in the multiverse.

This is something I could appreciate. And it looks sort of confirmed, though it's hard to take anything too seriously at this stage.

From a previous post of yours, Ari, and to address another poster or two:

I don't think it is a matter of semantics. After all, races--more so than almost any other mechanic--are differentiated as much by flavor as by mechanics. Using 3.5 as an example, one could easily call half-elves "elves" and true elves "fey," and it would work just fine without changing the mechanics.

So if they write the elves as being an offshoot of the eladrin, and being very similar except for one or two differences, it's a subrace. If they write them as separate races that happen to spring from the same stock, they're related races.

Just to be clear, I meant whether we called elves and eladrin two separate races or two subraces of the same race is possibly a matter of semantics.

I think it must be semantics, since we've been told there are no "subraces" per se in 4e. However, we can look at 3.5e as a point of comparison. In the MM, half-elfs are actually listed as a subrace of elf. So at some point, the designers of 3.5 must have felt there wasn't actually enough of a difference to make a distinct race (or else, they were just saving space in the book ). The aquatic, gray, wild, and wood elves are all pretty minor variations on the basic high elf, so it makes sense they're just subraces.

Drow are the most interesting case, though. Like eladrin, they are mentioned in the 4e design article as being "cousins" of elves, so this is a point of comparison between the two editions. In 3.5, drow are a subrace of elves, but they have a lot of extra features (extra ability bonuses, SR, bonus on some saves, SLAs, and some replacement features which are usually more powerful). Now it's possible (but I consider it unlikely due to the large drow fanbase out there) that drow will be very different in 4e. If they're not, though, we're promoting something that's considered an elf subrace to a full race. It just sounds to me that the 4e eladrin will be in a similar position to the drow when compared to elves, and that looks like a subrace to me.

Incidentally, in 3.5, eladrin have huge ability bonuses and many extra powers, enough that a ghaele is not even given a level adjustment. And it strikes me today that the eladrins in the MM art don't look all that elf-like, esp. the bralani. Just a touch of irony.

Now, back to my regularly scheduled posting...

 

[Mercule]

I would say it's more than semantics. Subraces always have the same basic racial abilities, with noted changes.

From the looks of things, Eladrin and Elves will be totally and completely different, with a racial relation in fluff only. No actual crunch overlap.

I read the original comment more like goblinoids being a racial family.

Eladrin, elves, and drow are just the "elfinoid" racial family, now.