New FAQ 23/11/06 [Merged]

[Felix]

Yet, why don't we see many clerics or druids taking a 1 level dip into monk? At 20th level, all that's really lost is a couple of spells for the cleric.

1 level is a small price to pay at 20th level, provided you're Lawful. At 3nd level it means the difference between having and not having 2nd level spells. There is a big difference in "cost" depending upon when that level is taken.

Meanwhile the benefits of the Monk's Belt increase over time while the cost remains the same. And you don't have to be lawful. And you're 1 spellcasting level ahead of the Cleric/Monk; handy when you can cast Flame Strike and Heal and he can't.

 

[Jhulae]

Out of curiousity, which spell would that be?

Would it be similar to the way Ray of Enfeeblement can reduce a heavy-armor wearing character to a stationary pile of flesh and metal?

Oh, wait... My cleric with her Mithril armor, shield and 30 lbs worth of junk still has her full bonus (well, maybe a point or two down from the max dex bonus of +1), as I'm still only in heavy load with a strength of 7... But, somebody else would have to be dropping items to bring themselves back to a light load or lose their +12 to AC...

An armor wearing cleric has to be dropped to where her strength can't carry her maximum heavy load. The belt wearing Cleric just has to be dropped into *medium* load.

 

[Jhulae]

Do your spellcasters not spend a large portion of their wealth increasing their main casting statistic? If they do, then they are not spending extra money on the belt, they are merely reaping an additional benefit from wealth they would have spent anyway.

Nope. They spend *some* weath, but nowhere near all. In fact, at 9th level, with my 32k worth of GP, I spent only 4k raising my character's int. I like being more than a one trick pony.

And, while I'm on this point. If I'm playing a Wizard, and for grins and giggles, I *am* spending all my money on raising my INT, a monk's belt really doesn't do anything for me, does it? In fact, depending on my character's Wis, she might be better off spending that 13k somewhere else.

In fact, any character other than a Wis based spellcaster, is probably better off spending all their money on their prime stats (Fighter on Str/Con, Rogue on Dex, Sorc/Bard on Cha)... so, the belt really doesn't do much for them either.

And, given the wealth by level guidelines, I've already shown that actual armor and shield is definitely more versitile with ~75k (I don't know what level that is, but it's around 12-14 I think) than bracers of armor +8 and a monk's belt is. And even Bracers of armor +6 and a Periapt of Wisdom +6 (which is even more expensive than the bracers +8, yet only provides a total AC bonus of +9...)

 

[Hypersmurf]

Yet, why don't we see many clerics or druids taking a 1 level dip into monk?

Gotta say, I love the 'Fast and Deadly' variant druid from... UA? Gives up Wildshape, but one of the things he gets in return is Monk AC.

-Hyp.

 

[shilsen]

I flat out don't believe you. And, it's not because I think you're lying, it's because that character would be seriously broken IMC.

You don't believe me when I say the character I described hasn't worked out as broken IMC?

Then evidently you do think I'm lying.

I'm not upset - just amused that someone would think I'm making up stuff about my game

That's a red herring. Killing characters is easy for a DM. Just because you know how to kill the character (and being able to recite his character from memory like that leads me to believe that you tailor-make encounters for him) does not make it non-broken. You may find it enjoyable or whatever and more power to you, but that's not the argument here.

I've been running the campaign for 2 years and 45 sessions. If I couldn't recite the characters from memory I'd be a little surprised. And I've never tailor-made an encounter for him.

Not that I expect you to believe me

The other problem I have with your example is all the confounding variables. You have high point buy, nonstandard (i.e. non-book) game style (one encounter per day), and variants. How can we judge anything about the belt which in comparison seems like a minor issue? That's like arguing whether magic missile is broken in an epic-level game.

That information was partly to provide context, and partly because a lot of it involves things that should synergize especially well with the belt, which is much less likely in the average campaign. I just intended to indicate that even with such synergizing, the belt hasn't been a problem. I figure that in the average campaign, that makes it even less likely to be the case.

 

[Felix]

30 lbs worth of junk

Quite a bit of kit, there. Convienient. I thought we had agreed that contrived circumstances were pointless? But if you're getting kicks out of it, by all means continue.

I like being more than a one trick pony.

Oh, bravo. Spending cash on one of the two class abilities of the cleric makes me a "one trick pony". I guess you split your cash between spells and Turn Undead, then? This is a red herring.

If I'm playing a Wizard, and for grins and giggles, I *am* spending all my money on raising my INT, a monk's belt really doesn't do anything for me, does it?

Don't fancy a high will save, do you? You often eschew Transmutation as a school? Or is splitting up your armor bonus between Shield, Bracers, Amulets of Natural and a Monk's Belt too much of a "One Trick Pony" issue for you?

Besides, Wizards really shouldn't be increasing their AC. Any wizard who allows the possibility of being targeted by spells or weapons just isn't trying hard enough.

I've already shown that actual armor and shield is definitely more versitile with ~75k

So we're back to the "wealth is important" argument, then, eh? Care to comment on how the Belt enhances the value of other items that raise your Wisdom, or will you take offense at word twisting again and "Not post anymore"?

You don't believe me when I say the character I described hasn't worked out as broken IMC?

A lot of people didn't have trouble with 3.0 Haste in their campaigns. Did that make it any less broken?

 

[Pielorinho]

Moderator's Notes:
Remember, folks, to show courtesy, respect, and civility toward other folks, even when (especially when!) you disagree with them. If you're tempted to post sarcastically or snidely, or to impute less-than-charitable motives to other folks, close ENWorld out and go read a webcomic or something.

This goes for everyone.

Daniel

 

[Infiniti2000]

You don't believe me when I say the character I described hasn't worked out as broken IMC?

I believe that, but that's not what I quoted. I'm not positive "believe" and "lying" are the correct words to use here, as they're a little strong. I'm glad you're not upset, because I was not trying to be confrontational and it's why I was specific to say "IMC".

For example, merely using 42 point buy is broken. But, if everyone uses it, then it's not broken. Thus, your experience is worthless as for as I'm concerned and as far as this discussion is concerned, because it's nothing close to my game or worse yet, a core campaign. Keep in mind that I run something far from a core campaign (check my web pages), but I'm also very careful about what I allow, particularly with regards to spellcasting stats.

 

[IanB]

While I do agree that the belt is too cheap if you allow the full wisdom bonus to AC, I don't think that side of the argument is giving enough weight to the opportunity cost of giving up the non-AC enhancements to gear - and if we're talking about a cleric (who has access to magic vestment) that can be up to +9 worth of enhancements per item.*

Losing the option to have heavy fortification at high level, for example, is to me a tremendous cost.

*As an aside, I don't allow non-epic weapons and armor to go past +5 worth of non-enhancement abilities IMC as I think this is broken.

 

[Storm Raven]

The contention is that with a monk's belt, the cash that was already going to be spent upon Wis-increasing items is going to work doubletime. What the monk's belt does is increase the value of Wis-increasing items without increasing the cost. Thus, the problem.

Except it really isn't. Because there is a practical limit to how much benefit you can get out of the item, and that limit is below the limit of purchasing a relatively cheap magical armor and magical shield. To be broken, an item need to give a character some sort of disporportionate edge when compared to the available alternatives, but in the case of the monk's belt, it does not. Sure, you can stack on bracers of armor and get more of a bonus, but bracers of armor are a lot more expensive than regular armor on a cost per point of protection basis, which results in you giving your "cost savings" right back.