New FAQ 23/11/06 [Merged]

[Infiniti2000]

And, @Infinity2000: I don't think Bracers of Armor are overpriced. And, I don't think, for what it provides with the limitations, a monk's belt is overpriced. So asking me to price something else is also irrelevant to this conversation, because I think the Monk's Belt is fine and I'd price something else (with the same limitations) almost exactly the same.

I'm trying to make it as relevant as possible, if you'll bear with me. The monk's belt price is fine in your opinion. So, can you break out the cost structure of the AC bonus and the rest of it, including whatever modifiers you want for the restrictions. In other words, let's say I want to make a Wisdom belt that merely grants me the AC bonus based on wisdom (including the restriction that it does not function while wearing armor or a shield), how much is it? Does it not matter if I am getting +1 to AC or +20? Let's not make it based on wisdom and just call it a Fidgit bonus (same restriction from armor/shield). How much for +1? +10? Open-ended?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Take off the belt, wildshape, put the belt back on... problem solved!

-Hyp.

If you put a belt on a cat, does it lose its balance?

 

[Felix]

Since it doesn't stack with all armor and shield bonuses, it doesn't stack with *all* bonuses.

You'll be happy to never have encountered that claim in any of my posts.

Obviously, my mistake of including the word 'type' seems to have lead to way too many posts of people missing my point

Not stacking with a particular bonus and not stacking with a particular type of bonus are two different things. Now that you've sorted that out, by all means, continue with your point.

 

[Jhulae]

I'm trying to make it as relevant as possible, if you'll bear with me. The monk's belt price is fine in your opinion. So, can you break out the cost structure of the AC bonus and the rest of it, including whatever modifiers you want for the restrictions. In other words, let's say I want to make a Wisdom belt that merely grants me the AC bonus based on wisdom (including the restriction that it does not function while wearing armor or a shield), how much is it? Does it not matter if I am getting +1 to AC or +20? Let's not make it based on wisdom and just call it a Fidgit bonus (same restriction from armor/shield). How much for +1? +10? Open-ended?

First, I don't see any examples from you showing of how you think the item should be priced, yet, you expect others to do just that. How would *you* price the Monk's Belt? I am honestly interested in knowing what you think is a fair price for it.

Second, the 'Fidgit Bonus' doesn't work, as the monk's belt is based on a specific bonus from a stat (Wisdom, in this case). Any equivalent item would also have to be based on a specific stat. Plus, the item would have to provide this bonus for most classes, but not all. There are no other core classes that get anything similar to the Monk's AC boost. The first non-core that comes to mind without digging through my books is Swashbuckler (and their AC bonus based on Int bonus). Any secondary abilities would have to benefit the class not getting the AC bonus, but not really benefit any others.

Third, while the bonus may be open ended, it's not infinite. The highest reasonable Wisdom any character can have is 36, including Wishes, the maximum wisdom boosting item, as well as starting with at 20 Wisdom and putting all level stat bonuses into Wisdom, and that doesn't occur to 20th level. And, that's a substantial cost.

Now, maybe if the bonus to AC was built on something like Constitution or Dexterity (two specific stats which benefit all characters, not just Wisdom based casters), the price should be higher.

But again, just because the item looks 'uber' on paper, doesn't make it so in actual play, because turning your character into a 'Monk's Belt Shtick' would be just as poor in actual play as having a multiclass character with 1 level in every class, or playing something with a +4 ECL. Sure, it looks *awesome*, but it falls apart in actual play.

 

[Jhulae]

Now that you've sorted that out, by all means, continue with your point.

See Post 50.

It all boils down to the fact that it takes so much in other resources to make this one item anywhere near overpowered for it's cost, especially when it does have drawbacks that negate the bonus it provides.

The item, to me, is designed in such a way that looking at it only by itself, without taking into account everything else that one needs to have to make it better than other options, makes no sense.

And, as for creating another item that emulates the Monk's Belt, see Post 74.

 

[brendan candries]

The fault lies with the monk class, not the belt.

Implement the max ac/class level rule ala duelist/bladesinger/invisible blade etc ...

... you get a belt giving a max of 5+1 ac to non monks and you put a reign on one/two monk level dip builds at the same time.

 

[Infiniti2000]

First, I don't see any examples from you showing of how you think the item should be priced, yet, you expect others to do just that. How would *you* price the Monk's Belt? I am honestly interested in knowing what you think is a fair price for it.

Wait, I ask you a question and because you can't answer it, you want me to answer it for you? My first response is "That item cannot possibly exist. I do not allow open-ended bonuses." What's your next question?

Second, the 'Fidgit Bonus' doesn't work, as the monk's belt is based on a specific bonus from a stat (Wisdom, in this case). Any equivalent item would also have to be based on a specific stat.

Why? Why can't we base it on, say, some factor of pounds of equipment carried? For every 10 pounds, you get +1 AC, does not work while wearing armor/shield and does not work for bards.

Third, while the bonus may be open ended, it's not infinite. The highest reasonable Wisdom any character can have is 36, including Wishes, the maximum wisdom boosting item, as well as starting with at 20 Wisdom and putting all level stat bonuses into Wisdom, and that doesn't occur to 20th level. And, that's a substantial cost.

How the wisdom gets so high is irrelevant. The fact is that the cost of raising the wisdom must be considered free because (for example) for a primary spellcaster based on wisdom, they will tend to max out wisdom anyway. Gaining another benefit on a maxed out stat has no additional cost.

Now, maybe if the bonus to AC was built on something like Constitution or Dexterity (two specific stats which benefit all characters, not just Wisdom based casters), the price should be higher.

Wisdom is not beneficial to all characters? I'd say it's as beneficial as Dex and Con, but quite honestly such a debate depends highly on the campaign. IMC, I do not rely heavily on hit point damage or Fort saves, so a good Will save is just as useful. Also, having a good Spot/Listen check is very helpful. So, in fact, what you are saying here supports my position.

But again, just because the item looks 'uber' on paper, doesn't make it so in actual play, because turning your character into a 'Monk's Belt Shtick' would be just as poor in actual play as having a multiclass character with 1 level in every class, or playing something with a +4 ECL. Sure, it looks *awesome*, but it falls apart in actual play.

Having played a human cleric, I'd say with absolute conviction that I would get a monk's belt in a heartbeat and sell my magical plate mail ASAP.

But, anyway, as another situation, do you equip monsters? I know some people don't and just give monsters treasure (no usable equipment), so this line of reasoning will fall apart if you don't.

 

[shilsen]

Okay, let me speak from experience:

I have a PC in my campaign, who's a druid with the UA Aspect of Nature wild shape variant, which lets him take on specific forms and still benefit from all his equipment. He also has the rage ability (allowed him to have it due to character concept). He's also a hexer, which gives him access to a couple of Sor/Wiz spells, so he took Greater Mage Armor. And he has a monk's belt.

So we have a PC who can get a +6 armor bonus (Gr. Mage Armor) that stacks with the monk's belt, has a high Wis since that's his casting stat, and can also cast Barkskin. He can also cast Cat's Grace, to raise his Dex. He has very high stats, the equivalent of 42 pts on point buy. He has a little over the recommended equipment for a character one level higher. The campaign usually involves only one fight in a game day, so the PC can't run out of resources easily, and at least 50% of the time, gets to go into a fight fully buffed. And most of the time he gets to fight significantly lower level enemies, with an overall EL that his PC group should easily beat.

By Infiniti2000's estimation, the monk's belt, esp. when coupled with the above, should make him seriously broken. In play, that hasn't happened at all. He is a very effective character, but doesn't dominate the other PCs or the opposition. If I didn't allow the use of action pts (of which I use a very generous system and give PCs 3 per session) to survive a killing blow/effect, he'd have been dead 4 times in 15 sessions.

Things on paper and in play are hardly always the same.

 

[Jhulae]

How the wisdom gets so high is irrelevant. The fact is that the cost of raising the wisdom must be considered free because (for example) for a primary spellcaster based on wisdom, they will tend to max out wisdom anyway. Gaining another benefit on a maxed out stat has no additional cost.

I'm just going to touch on this point right now, because this one of the *major* foundations of the argument.

Saying that the cost is irrelevant makes your argument specious. Unless you're playing in a campaign with limitless wealth (for example, the classic 'Monty Haul' campaign), saying that the cost of getting such a high wisdom (and total armor class bonus in this particular case) being irrelevant is ludicrous.

Characters have a finite amount of wealth. If you make a build that doesn't take that into account, you can make *any* item seem overpowered. It's the same as making any 20th level 'whatever' and "proving" it's broken. Any 20th level character is powerful, especially if designed to have one specific 'shtick' just to show how "broken" it is.

Since you don't seem to want to factor character wealth into the total overall effectiveness of a PC, then any further debate on this is pointless.

So, I guess the end is this: I don't think it's broken. You do. Others don't think it's broken. Others do. Fortunately there are house rules for any specific item/ability/rule that a DM doesn't want in their campaign.

@Shilsen: Thank you for the 'real game' example. That's pretty much how I expected it to play out.

 

[Felix]

Characters have a finite amount of wealth.

This is true.

And buying Wis increasing items renders a bonus, and it is worth the cost of that bonus to pay it. But when you tie another fairly important stat to Wis, you make the wealth that you spend on those items work that much harder for you.

The contention is that with a monk's belt, the cash that was already going to be spent upon Wis-increasing items is going to work doubletime. What the monk's belt does is increase the value of Wis-increasing items without increasing the cost. Thus, the problem.