D&D 5E New "Fighting Style": Versatile

[jrowland]

I was toying with a EK/Bladesinger build and felt the Fightying Styles were kind of meh...I mean duelist is pretty good, but then I see this thread...

Maybe Versatile needs to be something an EK would like...I mean, I want a hand free for spells and such, but I like dual-wielding for the oomph. I want the the versatility of a 2-h hit and spell-casting with a one-handed hit.

If you have more than one attack, I suppose you can, by raw, switch between 1h and 2h with a longsword, but so what? Versatile feat has to make THAT meaningful.

 

[Mirtek]

HmmmYou sacrifice 1.5 damage for a +1 to hit.

Which is a bad deal, because in almost all circumstances +1 to hit is worth more than +1.5 to damage

Incidentally, how good is the other style? It works particularly well with greatsword I believe because there are 2 dice.

Average damage on "normal" 1d6 = 3.5

The reroll on a 1-2 replaces the damage value of 1 or 2 with well, a 2nd roll which has an average value of 3.5. This means that the new average can be calculated to be approx. (3.5 + 3.5 + 3 + 4 +5 + 6)/6 = 5.04 (let's say 5).

So the average damage of a greatsword wielding thus becomes *10*! Minimal gain?!? Heck no!

Sorry, but your calculation is way off. The gain of "true" brutal (aka the 4e version where you re-rolled your dice until it became something other than 1 or 2) was worth 1 damage per dice. Since the 5e version is a slightly nerfed version of that (aka you reroll only once, if you get a second 1 or 2 you're stuck with it) it's worth less than 1 damage per dice, so for a greatsword it's <2 damage from the style in 5e

 

[Ancalagon]

edit: there is indeed an error in my math. I will have to revisit this post obviously, sorry about that!

 

[77IM]

According to my math, the expected value of a "d6, reroll 1 or 2 and keep the result" is 4 1/6, which is 2/3 higher than the expected value of a regular d6 (3 1/2). So a greatsword with greatweapon fighting style deals +1 1/3 extra damage, as compared to a dueling style weapon, which deals +2 extra damage.

...Unless you crit, because the crit damage also gets rerolled, then it's worth +2 2/3.
...Or you spend battlemaster dice, since that gets rerolled too.
...Or you have a weapon that deals extra damage, like a flame tongue, since that gets rerolled too.
...Or you use your paladin's Smite ability, since that damage gets rerolled too.

(I know that Sage Advice says that the intent was for additional damage die to not get rerolled, but that's not what the rules text actually says, and is a pretty serious nerf to an otherwise lackluster fighting style.)

 

[Ancalagon]

Ok, so I was wrong on two points here.

First, Great Weapon Fighting is horrible as the damage benefit is hardly worth it. I'm not sure I can use it to balance versatile.

Second, upon further thought, I'm not sure about the value of that +1 to hit. I'm using "3e thinking" here. Within a bounded accuracy system, that +1 to hit is worth a lot more than +1 to damage!

 

[JohnnyNitro]

Appreciate all the feedback. Was just the sort of discussion I love to see on these boards. Thanks, all. Now, as you were...

 

[BookBarbarian]

The way I see it, Versatile weapons are already the weapon of choice for grapplers. Grapplers will typically have a high strength, but need a free hand. So a one handed weapon with the highest possible damage die is ideal.

If the creature cannot be grappled (is more than one size larger than the character or is immune to grappling etc.) the character switches to using two hands on the weapon, EXCEPT that right now they are typically better off dropping the one handed weapon and drawing a two handed weapon as a free interaction with an object.

I feel like a Versatile Fighting Style or Feat would be best if it gave incentive for a grappler to keep that Versatile Weapon and swing it two handed when a target can't be grappled, and maybe give a small bonus to grappling when used with one hand.

I'm not much of a home-brewer so I don't have have much to contribute to a Fighting style or Feat, I just feel like this could be the best niche for the Versatile weapon.

 

[Jediking]

Maybe Versatile needs to be something an EK would like...I mean, I want a hand free for spells and such, but I like dual-wielding for the oomph. I want the the versatility of a 2-h hit and spell-casting with a one-handed hit.

If you have more than one attack, I suppose you can, by raw, switch between 1h and 2h with a longsword, but so what? Versatile feat has to make THAT meaningful.

I think Versatile has it's place now, but that most tables hand-wave the reasons that make it useful. The key thing is to have a free hand, but how many tables are strict enough to enforce it? Somatic spellcasting can be ignored or works if you have your emblem on a shield (or wearing a necklace). You can just use a heavy weapon and take off one hand. The only* real reason to choose Versatile (aside from Grapplers, a good point) is to have a free hand to hold something else or use items. It wouldn't be a shield or other weapon, torches aren't useful (nearly every race has Darkvision, and it seems to be hand-waved as well), and the limit on attacking and using an item would usually cost your Action anyways.

*there's probably a bunch of reasons that people can and should come up with, but nothing really stands out to me.

But I think that all those hand-waved bits, strict limits on item interaction and limiting spellcasting and making sure humans can't see even if the other 4 players can, have good reasons to be hand-waved. They can slow down the game without adding enough fun to warrant their inclusion. If you really want people to walk around with a Versatile weapon, there has to be a fun reason. Whether it's enforcing rules that encourage it (which mostly just limits other options, not a good choice). But then you have to be careful about not breaking the action economy (but maybe bend it a bit).

Instead of adding versatile damage, be able to use another item interaction. Maybe drinking a potion is a bonus action instead of Standard. Maybe you are able to Grapple when someone provokes an attack opportunity, or letting them Attack and then throw caltrops on the same turn. Let them carry around a bunch of toys and be able to use their free hand to share them.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Stopping to think about it a bit, the character's I've played that used versatile weapons were all in 3e. Two had levels in barbarian, and used TWFing or S&B - or archery, both were really archers, mainly, though one wasn't initially conceived that way - until they raged, then two-handed grip, 1.5 STR mod, and go to town. The third was specifically built to use a mix of styles, two-handing for Power Attack, spiked gauntlet for TWFing, or a free hand for grabbing, &c. It was a fun, but not wildly effective character - reprised it in 4e as a brawling fighter, but, as I'd expect it'd be in 5e, found little call for two-handing.

Maybe the appeal of Versatile should be fluidity of style, rather than one style tailored to it, something like:

Versatile Style: Choose either Great Weapon Fighting or Defense style: when you use a Versatile weapon two-handed, you gain the benefit of that style so long as you meet any other requirement. Also pick one either Dueling or Protection: when you are wielding a versatile weapon in one hand, you gain the benefit of the chosen style, so long as you meet all other requirements for it.

 

[jrowland]

Versatile Style: Choose either Great Weapon Fighting or Defense style: when you use a Versatile weapon two-handed, you gain the benefit of that style so long as you meet any other requirement. Also pick one either Dueling or Protection: when you are wielding a versatile weapon in one hand, you gain the benefit of the chosen style, so long as you meet all other requirements for it.

That's a decent Fighting Style, and maybe that's the answer: Make versatile weapons only really useful to those with the Versatile Style. Perhaps even a feat that allows you to choose only one fighting style (GWF, Def, Dueling, Prot) to use with a versatile weapon.