New GSL Announcement

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xechnao said:
Almost impossible. Everybody knows now that this method is a disaster.

It's a PR disaster, certainly, but it seems legally feasible. And given the "poison pill" clause in the GSL, I don't think WotC is necessarily worried about making themselves look squeaky-clean; especially in regards to fan-sites, since they're virtual non-entities in the industry.

Piratecat said:
Boy, I sure doubt that. This isn't TSR we're talking about. The WotC folks I know are smart, knowledgeable about the industry, and aware of past blunders. I wouldn't expect that kind of decision from these folks.

PC, I agree with you, but a lot of what we're seeing smacks of decisions made by Hasbro, not WotC. Scott and Linae seem to have been struggling mightily to have 4E be Open at all, so it seems likely that the people who'd want 4E closed - and want to make sure the D&DI has no competition - are the ones with the pull.
 
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TheRaven said:
What about the SRD? My guess is, that websites like mine (www.systemreferencedocuments.org) won't be possible with the fourth edition.
This is most likely already true. The 4e SRD will not contain the rules, it will contain references to the PHB, DMG and MM. For a site like yours to exist, you'd have to rewrite all the rules by hand (and probably in your own words) assuming that is allowed with the GSL.

You do bring up a different problem for fans. Can they host OGL and GSL content on the same domain? server address? That's a whole other kettle of fish I'm sure.
 

Piratecat said:
Boy, I sure doubt that. This isn't TSR we're talking about. The WotC folks I know are smart, knowledgeable about the industry, and aware of past blunders. I wouldn't expect that kind of decision from these folks.

The problem is, are they the ones making the decision?

There's been quite a few times when I've told Upper Management that "This is a really dumb idea", and they went ahead with it anyway.

After all, it wasn't the game designers, artists, and editors who were behind TSRs policies; it was Lorraine Williams, who knew nothing about games, and forced some of the staff to be the public face of the company and defend the inane decisions.
 

Wulf Ratbane said:
The "dick move" I referenced earlier was exactly this. It throws Clark under the bus to score points against WotC.

Well, I guess its my fault. I cant control information flow. You say something and it risks being spread. But I sure didnt think a discussion here and a call for an official answer to my question would lead to that kind of a slashdot artice. I'd like to believe I didnt just get thrown under the bus, but it sure feels like that to me. Just so someone can do a "gotcha" on Wizards.

I support Wizards 100%. I dont like the poison pill, but I understand it. I dont like getting leveraged, but I do it to people all day long in my job so its hard to object when it is done to me. :) I also happen to know that Scott and Linae know I support them 100%. So I dont think I really got thrown under the bus, since I doubt Scott and Linae would be mad at *me* over this. But, of course, the person who posted the article didnt know that.

Clark
 

I cant seem to win for losing these last couple days. And here we were Thursday and I was on top of the world that there was going to be a GSL. :)
 

Orcus said:
I cant seem to win for losing these last couple days. And here we were Thursday and I was on top of the world that there was going to be a GSL. :)

Monkey's Paw, I guess.
 

Wow, what a thread. I've read about 30% of it, so hopefully my points haven't been hashed to death already. My post got kinda long, so I've put some of the key points in italics.

At first I thought of the same way around the issue (two companies with a licensing agreement) of requiring a publisher to drop OGL to use 4e, if that is a requirement. (It seems we're still waiting to hear for sure.) but these are smart people and they'll word the license to preserve their intent and they'll use their catch-all if someone does violate the intent.

But more importantly/interestingly, why do you need to follow the GSL to make 4e compatible material? I'm sure someone could come up with some text to add to a product's cover that lets people know that the content inside works with a particular ruleset (or maybe several) without violating WotC's trademarks and copyrights. Someone did a "4 any 3dition" logo a few months back for example. Something like "Includes stats compatible with the latest version of the world's most famous fantasy role-playing game" would let everyone know they can use that adventure, setting, sourcebook, etc. with 4e while hopefully not violating any trademarks/copyright. (I'm not a lawyer so I'm not confident my example is OK, but my point is a lawyer could think up something like it.) We are a pretty sophisticated, intelligent market, I think.

The fact that you might have monsters and characters using stats based on the 4e rules shouldn't be an issue if my understanding is correct. That is: rules/concepts can't be copyrighted, just the specific text of the rules. (After all most RPGs borrow heavily from other RPGs. After all, how many use some combination of the core 6 abilities--maybe with one or two renamed and one dropped or one added. Examples of borrowing an idea and then tweaking it a little are more common than original ideas.) So I don't understand/believe that WotC could come after someone just for saying that the character Suzy has a Strength of 10, Con of 12... Will Defense of 15... etc. (If you copy the exact stats of a monster that probably is an issue, but you could easily just refer the reader to "your game system's monster guide.")

If someone is a lawyer in these matters and knows otherwise, please say so.

The d20/GSL licenses give that content/book some recognition in the market and the ability to copy portions (the extent of copying using the GSL is TBD) of the rules/stats. So based on what I wrote above, the recognition might be lost to a degree, but it could still be largely preserved. Copying rules/stats is an issue, but as I wrote above you could refer the reader in a generic way to the proper book and you should be free to list your own stats for your own custom creatures/monsters. Likewise if you're developing a sourcebook (such as a book of new classes) you should be able to spell all your rules for the classes and simply refer in a generic way to the creation and leveling-up portions, etc.

Now that I've hashed this out, I could see some publishers continuing to publish material based off the OGL, but include an appendix or shaded box or online reference so the same material can be played using 3.75-ish rules (where a publisher takes the OGL, maybe borrows a few ideas from 4e and adds a few of their own ideas), and also includes info (stats, new spell, etc.) for using the material with 4e while only referring to 4e in a generic way. So publisher x could put out a book that is a fantasy pantheon for example. Within the chapters of the book every god has core OGL-based stats. But they know publisher y's ruleset is good and publisher x has a license with publisher y (an open license or not) so they include an appendix or on-line resource or shaded boxes for each god's stats (or just the needed differences) using publisher y's rules. And the same pantheon book could also have the stats for the gods in the 4e rules as long as 4e is referred to generically.)

Of course, run this by an expert first. :)
 

Lizard said:
The problem is, are they the ones making the decision?

There's been quite a few times when I've told Upper Management that "This is a really dumb idea", and they went ahead with it anyway.

After all, it wasn't the game designers, artists, and editors who were behind TSRs policies; it was Lorraine Williams, who knew nothing about games, and forced some of the staff to be the public face of the company and defend the inane decisions.

I think Hasbro knows better. They are in business and going strong since when? And I seriously doupt Wotc is at odds with Hasbro as some people mention around here.
 

I do find it interesting that the rate of posting on this thread has dropped significantly as the morning passes. I think it speaks well of us all that we are waiting for feedback from Scott and others at WOTC before we continue our discussions. I personally appreciate that so many of us are showing a level-headed approach to this situation, and I hope that this trend continues long enough to get some resolution from WOTC on the specific issues that are being discussed here.

I imagine that, whether the GSL is firmed up or not, the PR and Marketing departments have probably been holed up all morning discussing how to handle this most recent revelation. I can assume that they feel torn in different directions: on the one hand, there are a lot of fans and publishers that expect to hear something today, the sooner the better; and on the other hand, there's likely some pressure to make sure that the presentation of this information is handled in a calm, cool and professional manner, so they want to make sure everyone internally is on the same page.

When you combine this with a similar pressure in regards to the perceived Gen Con/WOTC issue that also arose this weekend, it can't be a good morning for The Rouse, as I'm sure he's got to handle both issues soon.

Talk about a Monday,
Flynn
 

Lizard said:
The problem is, are they the ones making the decision?

There's been quite a few times when I've told Upper Management that "This is a really dumb idea", and they went ahead with it anyway.

After all, it wasn't the game designers, artists, and editors who were behind TSRs policies; it was Lorraine Williams, who knew nothing about games, and forced some of the staff to be the public face of the company and defend the inane decisions.

I'm pretty certain that if they haven't C&D'd crystalkeep, they won't be doing any C&Ds on any other fan sites anytime soon.

Its one thing to piss off the third party publishers, open source 'enthusiasts', and some customers - but going after fan sites would result in a lot more negativity.

And I know its hip to see teh eval hand of Hasbro behind everything, but to be honest? I suspect they've had diddly to do with this. D&D as a tabletop rpg just isn't that important.
 
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