NEW Immortals Handbook - Ascension thread

[Cheiromancer]

I'm also the one who said that the "attribute Portfolios" should be named only after the actual attribute, and if the concept was anything slightly different that it should be treated as something else entirely. Thus, in my view, the attribute Portfolios would be Strength, Agility or Dexterity, Health or Toughness, Intelligence, Wisdom or Perception, and Charisma (possibly Attractiveness, Leadership, Confidence, or something else depending on the individual DM's view of the stat).

Thus, "Stoicism" does not constitute the Portfolio of CON, nor does "Knowledge" constitute INT- however close they may be as concepts. And actually, going by real-world knowledge, Knowledge has very little to do with Intelligence conceptually- while it is true that intelligent people tend to have a lot of knowledge, it is not true that people with a lot of knowledge necessarily have great intelligence in the IQ sense. Being intelligent doesn't mean you know a lot, nor does a high degree of schooling mean you're smart- intelligence actually just means you figure things out and learn quickly. Knowledge is by definition learning that you've already acquired, and thus does not represent your ability to gain said learning (whether fast or slow in relative terms).

I hate "me too" posts, but I agree with paradox here.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi paradox mate!

Very much agreed on this point.

But then, I'm also the one who said that the "attribute Portfolios" should be named only after the actual attribute, and if the concept was anything slightly different that it should be treated as something else entirely. Thus, in my view, the attribute Portfolios would be Strength, Agility or Dexterity, Health or Toughness, Intelligence, Wisdom or Perception, and Charisma (possibly Attractiveness, Leadership, Confidence, or something else depending on the individual DM's view of the stat).

The problem with that is there are no Gods of Constitution...But there are Gods of Stoicism. Therer are no Gods of Charisma, but there are Gods of Beauty and Goddesses of Love.

If you look at EVERY portfolio it has multiple aspects that touch or derive from other ideas. I simply picked the most familiar of those aspects, from the perspective of mythology, thats all.

Thus, "Stoicism" does not constitute the Portfolio of CON, nor does "Knowledge" constitute INT- however close they may be as concepts. And actually, going by real-world knowledge, Knowledge has very little to do with Intelligence conceptually- while it is true that intelligent people tend to have a lot of knowledge, it is not true that people with a lot of knowledge necessarily have great intelligence in the IQ sense. Being intelligent doesn't mean you know a lot, nor does a high degree of schooling mean you're smart- intelligence actually just means you figure things out and learn quickly. Knowledge is by definition learning that you've already acquired, and thus does not represent your ability to gain said learning (whether fast or slow in relative terms).

How can you blame me for D&D misrepresenting Intelligence.

Wisdom is clearly IQ, Intelligence is Knowledge in D&D.

 

[Pssthpok]

I don't think anyone is blaming you for misrepresentation, UK; if anything people are looking at how you've set portfolios against other elements of the game and are wondering if it's all necessary that it be done in such a way.

A Secrets portfolio doesn't have to penalize Intelligence, even if it seems to counter the Knowledge portfolio which, in my opinion, is highly arguable: having Knowledge and keeping it Secret from others aren't diametrically opposed concepts where I come from.

All said and done, you've wired Weaknesses into the portfolios, so something has to give. I suggested and still stand by the idea that a single portfolio set in opposition to an ability score could prevent and item-based (not template-based, as I heard someone mention; that so defeats the point it's not funny) and spell-based increases (i.e. the score gets no better than it is), and a double portfolio penalizes the opposed ability check, but not the score.

ex: A Greater Deity (DvR 16), 98th-level Sorcerer, with double Secrets portfolios. Secrets opposes Intelligence, say, for whatever reason. The Sorcerer has a 24 Intelligence (+7 modifier), but makes his Intelligence checks at -9 (7-16) and adjusts his Intelligence-based skills by a -9 modifier rather than a +7. If the same deity had single Secrets, his 24 Intelligence would be the limit; no amount of buff could affect that score.

One last note, why do ability portfolios even need opposition? It's just going to get half the gaming population to disagree with you. Strength doesn't imply anything about any other ability score and to say otherwise is to force flavor down the consumer's throat; if all we end up doing is house-ruling why do we even need the book?

 

[Fieari]

I think it's a case of the portfolios being so powerful that they need a weakness to balance them out...

 

[Pssthpok]

Fine, but why penalize another ability score based on an opinion of opposition? Why not do something else?

Strength Portfolio: Must Power Attack when making a full attack.
Strength Portfolio (double): Must Power Attack at least half your base attack.

Etc.

 

[dante58701]

They are a far cry from being too powerful. I think it all depends on how you view the cosmos. I like them as they are, except for the penalties to ability scores and the rules regarding opposed portfolios.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Pssthpok mate!

Fine, but why penalize another ability score based on an opinion of opposition? Why not do something else?

Strength Portfolio: Must Power Attack when making a full attack.
Strength Portfolio (double): Must Power Attack at least half your base attack.

Etc.

The reason for penalizing the scores is because the portfolios expound upon stereotypes.

Typically, overtly 'Strong' gods are dumb, while rogueish gods have no stamina for a fight, those of love/beauty lack wisdom.

If a god of strength gains an Intelligence bonus as part of their divinity template then Baghtru will be smarter than Einstein!

 

[Pssthpok]

Hi Pssthpok mate!

Hi there, UK.

The reason for penalizing the scores is because the portfolios expound upon stereotypes.

Typically, overtly 'Strong' gods are dumb, while rogueish gods have no stamina for a fight, those of love/beauty lack wisdom.

If a god of strength gains an Intelligence bonus as part of their divinity template then Baghtru will be smarter than Einstein!

I just don't see a stereotype as anything more than force-fed flavor.

Strong gods will already have lower Intelligence scores, but too high a penalty and they become vegetables.
Roguish gods (i.e. Skill portfolio) will already have lower Con scores, again due to the tables you provide. Penalizing them as heavily as they are now could result in dead roguish gods, well before they ever see the light of day.

What if you apply a factor to the opposed score, to prevent a sub-zero reduction? Say Px1 equals a .75 multiplier and Px2 equals .5...
This way, a brutish Greater God of Strength x 1 can be expected to have an Intelligence no higher than 18 (rather than 24, which as it stands now would be reduced to 8), while a Greater God of Strength x2 would have an Intelligence of 12, rather than having their score reduced to -8.
Maybe even say (to a minimum of 10), to prevent a Demigod Strength x 2 from having a 6 Intelligence?

 

[paradox42]

The problem with that is there are no Gods of Constitution...But there are Gods of Stoicism. Therer are no Gods of Charisma, but there are Gods of Beauty and Goddesses of Love.

If you look at EVERY portfolio it has multiple aspects that touch or derive from other ideas. I simply picked the most familiar of those aspects, from the perspective of mythology, thats all.

And that's fine! Just don't say that those Portfolios are "attribute" Portfolios then. Because, in fact, they aren't. Honestly, there are a lot of shades of gray in just Clerical Domains alone, and I added something like 100 to the list in my own house rules because my deities have and offer access to so many. Expanding that in game terms, if every one of those Domains has an associated Portfolio, that means that deities of, say, Concealment (like my "Evil game" PC Equinox) will have slightly different powers from deities of Secrets, even though the two concepts are very closely related. Overlap is not a bad thing unless it happens within the same pantheon, and even then it's not a bad thing if the deities in question are of notably different alignments (say, good and evil).

We also need to remember that D&D reverses the anthropological explanation for religion comes about, in that it is the deities who directly contact worshippers and explain what they're about- rather than worshippers making deities who represent aspects of life they find important. Thus, the fact that no "real-world" deity is a deity of Health or Agility does not mean that no such deity could or should exist; it just means that no society of our world valued those concepts (specifically) highly enough to ascribe godhood to them, or in the D&D paradigm that no such deity ever saw fit to come to our world to get followers.

How can you blame me for D&D misrepresenting Intelligence.

Where in my post do I ascribe blame to anything or anybody? Besides, D&D doesn't misrepresent intelligence. The description of the stat is accurate to the quality that real-world IQ tests are supposedly designed to measure.

Wisdom is clearly IQ, Intelligence is Knowledge in D&D.

WHAT? Where the Hells did you get that idea? Wisdom has nothing whatsoever to do with speed of learning in D&D! Intelligence is clearly the only stat that does, as shown by the fact that only an INT bonus grants a character extra skill points. Getting extra skill points at each level is directly equivalent to learning things quickly- the fact that high-INT characters don't reach higher skill ranks faster than other characters is merely a fault with the level-based cap on skill points, not with it being ascribed to the wrong character quality. In a world where depth of learning (represented by skill ranks) is capped by how many hit dice you have, a character who learns things quickly would naturally have to spread the ability around to take in more skills, since such a character would "max out" favored skills and have more learning ability left over.

Knowledge is not now and never has been represented by an ability score- it is represented solely by skill ranks. That's the whole point of the skill-rank system in fact. It's not a natural, inborn ability waiting to be used, it's something the character acquires through use of its natural abilities.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there, UK.

Hiya mate!

I just don't see a stereotype as anything more than force-fed flavor.

I think if there is a flaw its with the balance rather than the mechanic itself.

Strong gods will already have lower Intelligence scores, but too high a penalty and they become vegetables.

Roguish gods (i.e. Skill portfolio) will already have lower Con scores, again due to the tables you provide. Penalizing them as heavily as they are now could result in dead roguish gods, well before they ever see the light of day.

What if you apply a factor to the opposed score, to prevent a sub-zero reduction? Say Px1 equals a .75 multiplier and Px2 equals .5...
This way, a brutish Greater God of Strength x 1 can be expected to have an Intelligence no higher than 18 (rather than 24, which as it stands now would be reduced to 8), while a Greater God of Strength x2 would have an Intelligence of 12, rather than having their score reduced to -8.
Maybe even say (to a minimum of 10), to prevent a Demigod Strength x 2 from having a 6 Intelligence?

The idea of Hercules or Baghtru having even an 18 strength doesn't sit well with me at all.

I think the best idea is to have the penalty (Penalty = DvR) for single portfolios and double portfolios (Penalty = DvR x2). But remove the penalties for magically increasing such scores.

Remember that the divinity templates give you an ability score bonus equal to +2/DvR to each score.

Which means a Demigod with 1 strength portfolio is only 6 points down on Int.

e.g. Lord Robilar from the ELH...lets make him a Quasi-deity and give him the double strength portfolio.

Str 43, Dex 24, Con 26, Int 11, Wis 24, Cha 24

If he feels his Intelligence is a weakness he could use a magic item, feat or divine ability to increase it.