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D&D General New Interview with Rob Heinsoo About 4E

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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I firmly believe that if 4e

  1. Gave every class 2 role and let you choose between them at level 1
  2. Have all powers shared between power source
There'd be more acceptance on 4e.

Like you choose fighter and choose Slayer (Striker) or Guardian (defender).
Paladin chooses Defender or Leader.
Wizard choose Controller or Blaster.
Etc etc.

I think the less people had to accept to fix what was broken in the past, the more they'd accept change
 

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Vaalingrade

Legend
The point of the defender role is because it's a thing players wanted to do in 3e but couldn't because the rules to make the idea of body blocking for your friends, AoOs didn't actually have enough teeth to prevent the DM from just having monsters eat the hit to walk up on the characters being guarded.

It was a thing people wanted to and tried to do and houserule a LOT back then, but never quite turned the corner.

You can see them working on the issue all through 3.5 with how many Bodyguard/Defender/Guardian PrCs and Feats they released.

So when the new edition came out, they made it one of the archetypical roles they designed classes around.
 

I don't think anyone is advocating for making the rules go away, but I can see how that could use some clarification.

Like, if you are a fan of how movies tell stories, then you're a fan of the Kuleshov effect. It's a rule of the medium, a sudden cut to a different image that carries some meaning given its context. It's analogous here to a game mechanic, say the d20 roll for success in D&D. They are tools of their mediums used to tell a story.

When you watch a movie, you're not usually consciously aware of the Kuleshov effect. If you're a cinephile and you're aware of it and you're paying attention, you can probably notice how a filmmaker uses it. But for everyone else, it's just a tool of the medium for creating a certain emotion while watching a story. It's subsumed into the narrative.

Similarly, the d20 roll for success has certain traits and features that game design nerds like me can see and use in certain ways. Like, the nat 1/nat 20 function being a 5% occurrence, or how the range of numbers can create big swings in results, etc. But for a good chunk of D&D players, it's just the game mechanic you use. It's subsumed into the narrative of how our cool OC's go kill a dragon.

The idea isn't to get rid of the game mechanic. The d20 roll for success is (debatably) as important for the storytelling of D&D as the Kuleshov effect is for cinema. We use the mechanic. We use the medium. We like what it brings to our stories.

But doing a d20 roll for success also isn't the point. For instance, we have a rule that says we only roll the dice when success is uncertain. We can choose to put away that mechanic for the sake of the story we're telling. We let the narrative context decide success/failure, instead of the dice. The goal isn't to roll a d20 for success. The d20 roll for success serves the narrative we're telling.

In most of the movies you watch, the Kuleshov effect isn't the point. It's a tool you can use to tell your story, and it serves the narrative you tell. We don't want to watch movies without it. We don't want to get rid of it. But we don't need to point at it like that Leo meme, either.

Extending this to classes with defined combat roles we can maybe see why a lot of tables didn't like it. The point of the Fighter isn't to be a Defender. Fighters being good defenders is a tool you can use to tell your story of your fighter, if it serves your narrative. But being a Defender isn't the point. It's something that also can be put aside for the purposes of your story. A 5e fighter can be a good defender, but they don't have to be, and it's a better design for a D&D class, because it doesn't imagine that being a defender is actually the reason you're a fighter.
So keep combat roles out of the PHB and put them in the DMG instead? The DM does resemble a director in some ways.
 

mamba

Legend


mamba

Legend
Thats still not bombing.

4e was ended because it didn't make the numbers WOTC wanted and it was on a downturn due to a bad schedule.

4e still sold crazy numbers despite being presented so horribly.
it sold pretty well initially and then fell of a cliff. That is why it was abandoned by WotC, and that to me (falling of a cliff in sales) is bombing, it just did not happen immediately, people had to get to know the game first.

You cannot say 'it still sold better than whatever e.g. Green Ronin was doing' as the reason for why it did not bomb, selling that badly was never in the cards
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
it sold pretty well initially and then fell of a cliff. That is why it was abandoned by WotC, and that to me (falling of a cliff in sales) is bombing, it just did not happen immediately, people had to get to know the game first.

You cannot say 'it still sold better than whatever e.g. Green Ronin was doing' as the reason for why it did not bomb, selling that badly was never in the cards
That's to me isn't bombing
That's burning out.
The 4e schedule burned through 15 years of content in 5 years.
 

I dunno if I would call it a failure, maybe more a weakness... there's plenty of heavy board game out there that are just not for everyone. I feel like DnD's always kinda been like that a little and you need at least one PC who loves to get deep in the crunch to help shoulder the extra brain load of learning complex rules on the go.

Would they have had more fun playing in 3.e where you had to understand BAB and full action? And the difference between being attacked to your AC and making a saving thrthrow
I can agree with you on the first part. I think it does help to have some investment from players. In my experience though, I've never been lucky enough to have any players invested at the same level as me. Small town issues I guess. I've come to terms with it and set my expectations accordingly.

I can't answer the second part since we didn't play 3e or PF together. I did play with another group and we enjoyed it more. I feel like 3e might have been more forgiving to a more loose style of play but I really don't know. You bring up good points though.
 

pemerton

Legend
But being a nerd and being socially skilled don't always go together. If it's just an improvement of the MAGIC related to it, why Arcana doesn't boost to hit with spells?
Having a high Arcana skill, in 4e D&D, correlates with having a high INT. Which does boost "to hit" with Wizards spells. So the premise of your question is false.

As for the Suggestion spell, in the fiction the character is performing a feat of magic. The success of that feat is determined by testing their magical skill (Arcana). The effect of the feat is measured by the general mechanic for measuring the effect of attempts to influence people without tricking or scaring them, namely, the Diplomacy skill.

I worked out this basic approach 25 years ago when I rewrote the Suggestion spell in Rolemaster to grant +100 on an Influence check.
 
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pemerton

Legend
I can think about Suggestion - it was completely transformed into "make an arcana check for diplomacy" which is horrible to say the least.
It's actually very elegant. Likewise Scare as Arcana for Intimidate (I can't recall if that's canonical if I made it up).

It puts the use of these non-combat spells into the general non-combat resolution framework (ie skill challenges).
 

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