D&D 5E New Rule of Three is up for 31 Jan. 2014

I'm not sure what you mean by "fail forward," then. It's obvious what happens when you fail the stealth challenge: you get caught. Why do we need a term for that?

The thing is...

Was this getting caught the result of a single check or entire challenge?
Who gets caught?
Who does the catching?
What are the circumstances in which the person is caught?
Where and when does the catching go down?
What are the consequences for getting caught?*

What you see as being an obvious thing, I see as very much not obvious. I mean, if you asked the same question about combat: when the PCs fail a combat challenge, it's obvious what happens: they get killed or unconscious, right? I would answer "don't know, it depends on the combat and whether there was some objective besides kill team monster / kill team PC."

Does that make sense?

So I see "Failing Forward" as recognizing the difference between judging the results of a failure on a check vs. a challenge first of all. It also means when serious failure happens that it still presents meaningful interesting choices for the players (unless it really is a TPK situation). So what would happen if the PCs were all caught? What about just one PC?
 
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I used to like giving each player control over every situation by allowing him or her to roll to perceive depending on if the PC is in position (through movement or marching order) to have a chance to see/hear a hidden foe or a trap. But after thinking about Passive Perception for a while I think there is definitely merrit to comparing 1 foe roll to the passive perception scores of each of the party memebers especially when it comes to determining surprise.

Player rolls example: the group is walking past a stack of boxes. The fighter is leading them, his shield is glowing with divine light provided by the party cleric. As soon as the fighter steps within 10' of the boxes he makes his wisdom(perception) check vs. predetermined DC 15 (or whatever...it could even be 10+proficiency+attribute bonus+expertise if the hidden creature has NPC class).

Now...here's the problem. What if 8 creatures are hiding, and the fighter fails the perception check? That would probably allow all 8 of the creatures to pounce on the fighter and rip him to shreds. When would the others in the group get to perceive/act? Would we roll intiative after 1 creature attacks? Or would we let all 8 attack before rolling initiative? How does surprise work if the others don't make wisdom (perception checks)? Do we make all of the others roll a wisdome (perception check)? Are the others automatically surprised? Is only the fighter surprised and everyone rolls for initiative to see who acts first (even the ones that didn't make a perception check)?

Considering these quesitons....maybe the passive roll is best. With one roll, it will be much easier to determine who is surprised and who isn't. Roll for foes -- then see if fighter has high enough passive perception....then check against each of the others in the party. Have the group roll for initiative and begin the combat letting those who are not surprised act in the first round. This may be the most efficient way to do it.
 

I would rather each player and creature roll for perception because during initiative, you would have everyone going at different times with those winning surprise going first.
 

It's obvious what happens when you fail the stealth challenge: you get caught. (snip)
I'm somewhat iffy on the failing forward thing myself, but I do disagree with the quoted part: I don't think a failed stealth check has to mean getting caught. What it does mean, in my games, is that the failed characters are now vulnerable to discovery by anyone who's actively looking for them.

(However, you didn't say stealth check, you said stealth challenge--did this conversation veer into the 4e-specific? I'm coming at this from the perspective of 2e, where stealth rolls are made against a static DC, so there might be a lot of disconnect there.)
 

I like the angry DM's take on failing forward:

The concept of failing forward, however, rankles me. I’m not going to lie. For a couple of reasons. First of all, its a waste of time in a focused, goal-oriented adventure. Take the “escort the prisoner” example you offered. The party is trying to accomplish something – solve a mystery, achieve a goal, what have you. If they fail at something, they have a set back and have to find an alternate route to their goal. They can’t get the documents and need to find another bluff to pull or another source of the information they need.
But that “failure forward” means they still get what they were after, except we have to be distracted by some unrelated garbage first. I don’t want to waste time playing out the PCs escorting some felon to prison. Especially because, in order to make that interesting, I need to have an escape attempt. Its a distraction. Stop doing what you were doing.

I want failure to require the players to find a different path forward, not force them to wander a mile out of their way then pick up where they left off.
Moreover, failing forward is not failing. It says that no matter what, you will succeed at the adventure. Its just a matter of how much you have to put up with before we all decide its time to end the story. That’s fine if you want to tell “an interesting story,” but it is not a challenge. The players don’t accomplish something. They don’t solve something. They just either succeed forward or fail forward until they get to the end.
Now, if you want to play that way, I won’t begrudge you. But I wouldn’t run a mystery like that. A well-crafted mystery is a complex thing and it is very hard to create a good one players can solve. I would caution any DM from rewriting reality to make failures fail forward and distracting the party with extraneous sidetracks.
I will also reiterate that the concept of “making failure interesting” and “failing forward” is too focused on the outcome of random die rolls to be the source of what’s interesting in the story. The focus is on the choice they made. The fact that the party chose to impersonate police officers as their approach should be the focus, not the fact that they failed at it by “succeeding too well.” In the end, it comes down to whether or not you are willing to let the PCs lose: http://angrydm.com/2010/07/winning-dd/
 

I'm not sure what you mean by "fail forward,"
The term comes from an approach to action resolution associated especially with Ron Edwards (Sorcerer), Luke Crane (Burning Wheel) and Robin Laws (HeroQuest Revised). As a technique, although without that label, it appears in the 4e DMG and then again, in more detail, in the 4e DMG2 (in the latter book Robin Laws cuts-and-pastes big chunks of the HQ Revised rulebook into the 4e book). The only d20 game I know of to advocated the technique under that name is 13th Age. (Jonathan Tweet is a big fan of the technique. In his preface to the 20th anniversary edition of Over the Edge he says that if he were to write the game now, he would include it as a preferred resolution technique.)

Here is a description (combined with advocacy) of the technique from 13th Age (p 42):

A simple but powerful improvement you can make to your game is to redefine failure as “things go wrong” instead of “the PC isn’t good enough.” Ron Edwards, Luke Crane, and other indie RPG designers have championed this idea, and they’re exactly right. You can call it “fail forward” or “no whiffing.”

The traditional way to interpret a failure is to see it as the character not being up to the task at hand. . .

A more constructive way to interpret failure is as a near-success or event that happens to carry unwanted consequences or side effects. The character probably still fails to achieve the desired goal, but that’s because something happens on the way to the goal rather than because nothing happens.​

I personally prefer the description of the technique from Burning Wheel, although I can't give that to you word-for-word here. It is along these lines, though: when a player fails a check don't focus on the idea that the PC failed at the attempted task; rather, emphasise the PC's failure to achieve what they hoped or intended to - which may have happened even if they succeeded at their task (eg because some external element, perhaps one that hitherto hadn't been an established part of the backstory of the game, intervened).

On the same page of 13th Age, there is what I consider a fairly low-pressure example of "fail forward": a failed CHA check to gather information about an NPC's location doesn't mean the information isn't gained, but does mean that the NPC gets word of the PC's inquiries, and hence is prepared and ready (or perhaps has moved on) when the PCs arrive at that location. Burning Wheel tends to emphasise more drastic (and dramatic) sorts of failures: in this case, you learn where the NPC is because you come across them, in the street, trying to find you! But that difference in the degree and immediacy of pressure resulting from the consequences of a failed check is a matter of taste, and not inherent to the technique itself.

Another example I have given on these boards has been in the context of 4e skill challenges: if the low-CHA fighter fails in a Diplomacy check in a skill challenge, you don't have to narrate that as "You cough and splutter all over the NPC". You can instead narrate something like "The NPC nods wisely, and replies - You make a good case, but unfortunately I swore an oath to my late father that I would never take such a course of action, . . " I have mentioned this example because I think it nicely illustrates that "no whiffing" idea - the failure doesn't make the PC look incompetent or idiotic, but is instead used by the GM as an opportunity to introduce an additional complication ("Schroedinger's oath") into the scenario - now, to continue with the skill challenge, the players have to work around the oath or perhaps come up with some idea for relieving the NPC of the burdens of the oath.

It's obvious what happens when you fail the stealth challenge: you get caught
I like the example that [MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION] suggested upthread - the players fail their group check to sneak past the bugbears, but the GM narrates the consequence as being that the PCs were not heard by the bugbears: rather, a prisoner hears them and calls out - so they haven't achieved their goal of getting from A to B stealthily, but their situation isn't framed as being caught either. The situation has become more complicated, but there are still meaningful choices to be made (and hopefully, therefore, fun play to be had).

I hope that these examples also help make clear the sort of playstyle with which fail forward is associated: not so much with Gygaxian-style "skilled play", nor with serious simulation-oriented play (hence [MENTION=2518]Derren[/MENTION] wants it to "die painfully") and more with "keeping the scene alive while there's still fun stuff to be milked from it" play.

I like the angry DM's take on failing forward
The stuff you quote suggests to me that AngryDM doesn't have very much familiarity with the technique. Whether one likes it or not, it has nothing to do with "They just either succeed forward or fail forward until they get to the end." In the sort of play that uses "fail forward" techniques, there is no "the end". There may be rules for deciding when a scene is to be closed with some final resolution (be that failure or success) or there may not - that depends on system details - but what happens next has to be constructed on the basis of what already happened, including the complications narrated as part of the "fail forward" narration. If you already know what "the end" is - ie if the campaign is prescripted - then fail forward is pointless (and as far as I can see so is any other action resolution, but maybe I'm missing something - perhaps the idea is that to progress through the script the players have to make a certain number of successful checks, and if they don't they go back to the start and try again. That sounds a bit video-gamey to me, though!).
 
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If you already know what "the end" is - ie if the campaign is prescripted - then fail forward is pointless (and as far as I can see so is any other action resolution, but maybe I'm missing something - perhaps the idea is that to progress through the script the players have to make a certain number of successful checks, and if they don't they go back to the start and try again. That sounds a bit video-gamey to me, though!).

The closest to that concept I can think of in a tabletop RPG would be Gloranthan heroquesting. Where in theory you have one pre-determined encounter, resolve it a particular (and usually pre-determined) way, and move on to the next. Eventually you complete the heroquest and return to the normal world with your reward. It would however be fair to say that they're an example of Fail Forward in action. Failing to do the expected action successfully at one station doesn't mean you don't go to the next one. It means that the next step will almost certainly have some complication that you weren't expecting and that you are going to have to find a way to resolve that isn't pre-determined - and that's dangerous. Nor can you be sure that the reward will be the same, or that you won't have done something to the world when you get back to it - there will be consequences for everyone who supported you regardless of whether they went on the quest or not.
 

The closest to that concept I can think of in a tabletop RPG would be Gloranthan heroquesting. Where in theory you have one pre-determined encounter, resolve it a particular (and usually pre-determined) way, and move on to the next. Eventually you complete the heroquest and return to the normal world with your reward. It would however be fair to say that they're an example of Fail Forward in action. Failing to do the expected action successfully at one station doesn't mean you don't go to the next one. It means that the next step will almost certainly have some complication that you weren't expecting and that you are going to have to find a way to resolve that isn't pre-determined - and that's dangerous. Nor can you be sure that the reward will be the same, or that you won't have done something to the world when you get back to it - there will be consequences for everyone who supported you regardless of whether they went on the quest or not.
In Gloranthan heroquesting, how much can you change the present mundane world by going through the myth in a way that differs from the standard version of the myth? Different commentaries that I've read have left me unsure as to what the canonical approach is to this (or even if there is a canonical approach).
 

In Gloranthan heroquesting, how much can you change the present mundane world by going through the myth in a way that differs from the standard version of the myth? Different commentaries that I've read have left me unsure as to what the canonical approach is to this (or even if there is a canonical approach).

I would say that it varies depending on the scale of the change you're trying to make. Myths resist being changed, and the larger the change is the higher that resistance should be. Also, there's a benefit to doing a myth the "correct" way - even when it appears you fail all the time, as a follower of Yelmalio seems to on the Hill of Gold heroquest, in the end there's a benefit to be had from completing it properly (Endurance, in this particular case). A follower of Yelmalio who defeats the representative of Zorak Zoran on this quest will be able to use the fire powers that the ZZ worshipper is supposed to steal, but may not get the other benefits of the quest. On an individual scale it doesn't matter so much.

On the other hand, a Community can support a quester. Sometimes it can be a small quest that lets that community do something that others have already learnt to - a quest to befriend Bee Mother that allows the community to harvest honey from her children, in exchange for whatever the quester agreed to (which may not always be a good bargain, but is mythically significant). That's more a matter of learning a new heroquest, which will then turn out to be one your clan has forgotten it always could do.

But then of course there's much larger stuff you can do. It may start out as a personal thing, where you do something slightly differently and discover a new "reward" that you can gain from the quest. If you teach other people, and they do the quest the same way, and it spreads widely, at some point more people start to think that's how the quest should be and that's how the world actually works. This isn't changing the myth for you, or "changing" your clan history so that something you know how to do is remembered again when you never knew it before. This is making the world different by changing a myth. When some Orlanthi in Dragon Pass changed a myth, they learnt to talk to dragonewts and understand their way of thinking, and created the EWF. When Jrusteli explorers changed a myth, they proved that two grain goddesses could be exchanged without their worshippers noticing (at least, until all the crops failed in one land and all the marriages in the other).

This is dangerous. The EWF ended when every human being in Dragon Pass was killed by dragons. The Jrusteli Middle Sea Empire ended with lands being sunk under the sea, the oceans being closed for generations, and everyone who knew the Secret that let them change myths as easily as they did was killed by invisible assassins. These consequences may or may not have been the result of other people questing, but it's quite certain that experimental heroquesting is not a popular activity in the 3rd Age - after all, the 2nd Age where it was at it's height ended so well.
 

1. Group stealth which the current rules makes nearly impossible (4-6 rolls means a really high margin of failure, even if you have high modifiers) is a feature and not a bug, because Ranger spells.

Uh....no...That's not an acceptable answer. lets say each individual character has a 20% chance of failure on the dice (meaning they have extremely high modifiers). Lets say we have the average of 5 characters. This means the chance of one member of the party failing is 1 - (.8 * .8 * .8 * .8 * .8) (multiply together the chances of succeeding at a roll to get the chance of not making it) or 67.232%. So if the entire party has an 80% of success individually, they have a 67.232% chance of being detected anyway as a group. I'm sorry, but it appears the team at WotC didn't run the math, or they have a desire to make the group reliant on magic. Just for fun a party that has members that have 20%, 20%, 20%, 40%, 60% chance of failure would give us 1-(.8 * .8 * .8 *.6 *.4) = 87.712% chance of failure. So if you have even one member that has a low chance you might as well not even try.

I have some sympathy for the idea of reducing repeated trials. Reducing the spot/listen and hide/move silently skills into perception and stealth were a valuable change along the same vein because it reduced 2 checks to 1 per character. However, I do think there are other important issues involved that have to be handled with some care. Characters with terrible penalties to their ability to be stealthy (heavily encumbered or in certain types of armor) really should drag down the group's chances of being stealthy. But making a group check based on his ability should probably not auto-reveal the more stealthy PCs as well. Then there's always the chance that a more stealthy character might make a mistake indicated by a bad check even if the least stealthy PC managed to desperately achieve a success.

One option might be to take the group initiative idea from one of 2e's initiative options - roll one die but everyone uses their own modifiers. A really good roll is good for everyone, a really bad roll might be bad for everyone, but a middling roll will reveal the worse sneakers but successfully hide the better ones.
 

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