D&D 5E New take on why expertise dice is a bad mecanic

[eprieur]

Especially in an high fantasy system. So imagine you are this fantasy monk, you want to feel awsome and kick this guy on the other side of the room. So you use your special maneuver, fly through the room and kick the guy for X damage and he's projected on the wall where he take some more damage, etc. You feel happy as a super special monk.

In 4.0 it's very easy, you just did a monk encounter power, you shifted your move toward the enemy and kicked him for twice your normal damage + a special effect.

But in next you have expertise dice that regenerate to full each turn, so what do you do? You can't have a power like the one above, that would mean using it each turn since it's better then just punching someone. You have to balance it. And against what? Against the base power, stuff like deadly strike and flurry. You basically cannot be awsome when you use your kick power or you will have created an unbalanced power. So you use 1 dice to kick the person, and another for it to work on a bigger target, etc, creating a power that want to be awsome but will eventually just suck and do no damage.

Why? Because nothing can be better then attacking someone and spamming deadly strike that's why.

Expertise dice are basically an at-will ressource but limited by round. I argue that you cannot have cool stuff using a system that is purely at-will and I look at what they give us in this package and that's a pretty big confirmation in that regard.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

No offense intended, but this isn't really a "new" argument. As I understand them, the traditional "daily/encounter vs. at-will" arguments run like this:

On the one hand, the inclusion of daily and encounter abilities allows for more variation in power level between abilities, so you can have some abilities that are strictly better than others without having them spammed. (This is your main point here.)

Ideally, this can allow for a broader array of powers as well as more tactical planning, since daily and encounter powers give the player a choice of when to "blow" their most powerful abilities.

On the other hand, first off, there are believability problems for a lot of people with limits on martial powers. If the monk can do a crazy high-damage power kick, why DOESN'T he do it every round? You can make up a bunch of ad-hoc justifications (his legs get tired, enemies are prepared the second time, etc), but that gets old for some people.

More importantly (for me), this also takes a lot of tactical planning out of the CHARACTER'S hands and puts it in the PLAYER'S hands. It seems rather absurd to say, "My character knows that he can only Death Kick once per day and it's only the first encounter since we rested, so he'll save it." This is annoying for some people who like to play out their actions based purely on the character's motivations.

Now, when it comes to the monk class specifically, you're in luck! They already have a "ki points" daily power mechanic in place. It just needs to be expanded so that it applies to a broader range of cool abilities (rather than just stunning strike and wholeness of body). Maybe a "honed strike" ability could let you deal +2d6 damage for one ki point, so you could combine Hurricane Strike with Honed Strike for your super daily kick?

 

[Ahnehnois]

Expertise dice are basically an at-will ressource but limited by round.

Unless they are free actions, all resources are limited by round.

In fact, the round is the basic currency of D&D, and characters are balanced by what they can do in a round, not in a day or in an "encounter". Resources that recharge by the day have been one of D&D's worst points throughout its history. Expanding that or reintroducing that is not a good idea.

There are better ways of handling special abilities should the need arise.

 

[eprieur]

For the monk indeed, I didn't talk about that because the problem is universal with maneuvers, not just with monk and I don't think they can fix it if they stay with the at-will end of turn type of maneuvers.

One solution that keep them at-wills somewhat but more limited with a more varied range of power is if you use stuff like rage (you gain rage when you hit the first time each round or when you are hit and you start the fight with 0) or energy (you gain 1 energy each round, you start the fight with full energy) or mana (you start with 10 mana and you regain it when you short rest for 10 min, etc.

All these (harder to track) ressource system would allow for cool ability, augmentable spells or maneuvers, etc.

I feel that it is what the designer are trying to do but if they stay with this simple expertise dice ressource they will fail to create something really cool

 

[eprieur]

Unless they are free actions, all resources are limited by round.

In fact, the round is the basic currency of D&D, and characters are balanced by what they can do in a round, not in a day or in an "encounter". Resources that recharge by the day have been one of D&D's worst points throughout its history. Expanding that or reintroducing that is not a good idea.

There are better ways of handling special abilities should the need arise.

That sound like a generic rebuttal but the thing is that the designers are currently going to implement the maneuver system and it is going to suck unless they change something. It doesn't have to be that drastic but they need to add something to it I think (see above post).

My post was related to the fact that they are going to implement this and I hope we can make them change their mind and go with something else a bit different.

I personally tend to hate most daily ressources also but that's another subject.

 

[Warbringer]

Don't buy it. And I fully expect to features or feats that state...

Once per "encounter" you can add 3 dice to your expertise pool...
On condition " x" you can add 2 dice to your expertise pool...
Each morning you medidate and focus your martial prowess for that critical strike... Once per day you can add 5 dice to your expertise pool ...

Etc

 

[n00bdragon]

Because in a game where magic exists and wounds don't the idea that someone could do something only once per <unit of time> is unrealistic, unless that thing is magic in which case limiting its number of uses to an arbitrary length of time is okay because that's what the original designers did 40 years ago so it must be right.

Right?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Because in a game where magic exists and wounds don't the idea that someone could do something only once per <unit of time> is unrealistic, unless that thing is magic in which case limiting its number of uses to an arbitrary length of time is okay because that's what the original designers did 40 years ago so it must be right.

Right?

Yes, you are right...

It was good back them and it is good for me now. I like it how it is.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Because in a game where magic exists and wounds don't the idea that someone could do something only once per <unit of time> is unrealistic, unless that thing is magic in which case limiting its number of uses to an arbitrary length of time is okay because that's what the original designers did 40 years ago so it must be right.

Right?

No. The plausibility issue is one thing, moreso for nonmagical abilities, but having an ability limited to some arbitrary number of uses per unit time is unbalanced, needlessly confusing and complex, and it's not fun either. Daily mechanics are simply indefensible.

 

[GX.Sigma]

I still like the idea of warrior-types being able to "over-exert": getting extra dice for one round, then being exhausted (no more dice at all) until the next short rest.

This actually models 'stamina' in a way that 4e's martial encounter powers didn't.