D&D 5E (2014) Newbie question re: surprise, initiative and ready action
- Thread starter Ibrandul
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LordEntrails
Legend
I would have granted surprise to the two front PC's, and made the other PC's roll perception to see if they saw those PCs getting ready for combat (if they could see them, which I'm not sure you said). The enemy would have been surprised, and then I would have started the surprise round at the initiative of the highest of the two front PC's.
I do this same thing (using the initiative of the first character to act) is situations like opening doors or other transitions into combat. i.e. the first character that it is important to move to combat rounds is the first one to act and the round begins with their initiative count.
I do this same thing (using the initiative of the first character to act) is situations like opening doors or other transitions into combat. i.e. the first character that it is important to move to combat rounds is the first one to act and the round begins with their initiative count.
The way I would run the situation you presented would be as follows:
1. The DM describes the situation with specific verbge of "You have your bow drawn taught ready to shoot the enemy as it rounds the corner. As the enemy rounds the corner you release your arrow. Roll for initiative."
2. The players and DM roll for initiative. The DM declares that the NPCs and other PCs not with the bows drawn are surprised.
3. The player with the highest initiative that is not surprised rolls to hit.
4. The players and NPCs that are surprised gain their reaction when their initiative comes around.
If something happens between the time the DM says roll for initiative and the player with surprise turn that would cause them to want to change their attack they do not get to. There are no take backs on actions. This lets the players ready an action outside of initiative.
Another complication would be something like what my group tried early in our 5e play. They wanted to ready an action to consecutively move and attack similar to what a strike team might try. The Ready action does not allow both movement and an attack. I house ruled to allow half movement speed with a Ready action to allow some sense of move and strike as a coordinated team.
1. The DM describes the situation with specific verbge of "You have your bow drawn taught ready to shoot the enemy as it rounds the corner. As the enemy rounds the corner you release your arrow. Roll for initiative."
2. The players and DM roll for initiative. The DM declares that the NPCs and other PCs not with the bows drawn are surprised.
3. The player with the highest initiative that is not surprised rolls to hit.
4. The players and NPCs that are surprised gain their reaction when their initiative comes around.
If something happens between the time the DM says roll for initiative and the player with surprise turn that would cause them to want to change their attack they do not get to. There are no take backs on actions. This lets the players ready an action outside of initiative.
Another complication would be something like what my group tried early in our 5e play. They wanted to ready an action to consecutively move and attack similar to what a strike team might try. The Ready action does not allow both movement and an attack. I house ruled to allow half movement speed with a Ready action to allow some sense of move and strike as a coordinated team.
Harzel
Adventurer
That would seem to penalize participants who roll initiative higher than the first character to act. That seems odd. Or maybe I am misunderstanding your description.
Hriston
Dungeon Master of Middle-earth (He/him)
Is there some reason why the characters in the back-ranks were unable to see the dim light of the approaching torches? The "enemy" doesn't seem to have been trying to be stealthy, considering they were holding lit torches, so I don't see why they were only noticed by the characters in the front rank. Maybe I'm missing something.
LordEntrails
Legend
Sort of does. But since they don't get to act during the surprise round anyway and since we do cyclical initiative, it's just for placing people in some other than random order anyway.
The thought process is, even if you roll high on init, you don't get to act if you are unaware. would be silly if "I know that no one has opened the door yet and I'm not aware of them, but I draw my crossbow and ready an action... Or I hide behind the bed... or..."
Probably worth putting more thought into it, but it's simple and not a big deal to us. If there's something that works and is simple, we can adapt.
BoldItalic
First Post
My take on the original question:
By declaring that they are readying an attack, the two front rankers had ipso facto initiated combat. So you roll initiative immediately and decide about surprise, before the monsters even appear around the corner. It seems reasonable to say that the back-rankers are surprised. You might decide that the monsters are surprised or not, depending on how their passive perception compares to the PC's Stealth roll. Then it's straight into round one. Depending on initiative and surprise, the monsters might appear around the corner that round or not, and the front-rank might get their readied actions or not but it will all work out by the normal combat rules.
By declaring that they are readying an attack, the two front rankers had ipso facto initiated combat. So you roll initiative immediately and decide about surprise, before the monsters even appear around the corner. It seems reasonable to say that the back-rankers are surprised. You might decide that the monsters are surprised or not, depending on how their passive perception compares to the PC's Stealth roll. Then it's straight into round one. Depending on initiative and surprise, the monsters might appear around the corner that round or not, and the front-rank might get their readied actions or not but it will all work out by the normal combat rules.
DemonSlayer
Explorer
I think you handled it perfectly.
A character can 'be ready', but not 'ready an action' before combat starts.
If you make combat start as soon as they notice the light, you could take away the opportunity to surprise since it only happens in the first round. For example, if the enemy was further away, and stopped to talk for a bit. Combat should start as they round the corner, or when the ambush is sprung.
If you want multiple tiers of combat initiative, give advantage/disadvantage where appropriate. That can also spill over into advantage on the attack as well.
A character can 'be ready', but not 'ready an action' before combat starts.
If you make combat start as soon as they notice the light, you could take away the opportunity to surprise since it only happens in the first round. For example, if the enemy was further away, and stopped to talk for a bit. Combat should start as they round the corner, or when the ambush is sprung.
If you want multiple tiers of combat initiative, give advantage/disadvantage where appropriate. That can also spill over into advantage on the attack as well.
The "free action before combat" thing is a common desire from players, but it doesn't exist in 5e. They can declare their intent to do something all they want, but initiative is required to know when it all happens.
I think the problem is that players look at their "free action" as the thing that triggers combat, when it's really just their first action during combat. Like, if you're talking to a shopkeeper and he's not giving you the discount you want, you don't get to stab him in the face and *then* roll initiative. You say you are going to stab him in the face and the GM starts combat to determine when it happens. If the shopkeeper wasn't surprised (maybe he's a veteran shopkeeper and knows a violent customer when he sees one), it's very possible that he'll be quicker on the draw and see that you're going for your dagger, etc..
But no, there isn't a "free action before combat," so there's no need to figure out how to handle the situation. Just have the players roll initiative determine if anyone is surprised.
I think the problem is that players look at their "free action" as the thing that triggers combat, when it's really just their first action during combat. Like, if you're talking to a shopkeeper and he's not giving you the discount you want, you don't get to stab him in the face and *then* roll initiative. You say you are going to stab him in the face and the GM starts combat to determine when it happens. If the shopkeeper wasn't surprised (maybe he's a veteran shopkeeper and knows a violent customer when he sees one), it's very possible that he'll be quicker on the draw and see that you're going for your dagger, etc..
But no, there isn't a "free action before combat," so there's no need to figure out how to handle the situation. Just have the players roll initiative determine if anyone is surprised.
