Nifft's Multi-Classing Revision
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Ulorian - Agent of Chaos
Legend
Nifft
Penguin Herder
No worries, and thanks for the thought.Ulorian said:Shot down by Piratecat You'll have to settle for this bump as advertising.
Cheers, -- N
Destil
Explorer
So, I'm doing some work on the actual prerequisites for each of the multiclass feats....and it's a bit daunting. EDIT: Racial features move this up to 'rather daunting'. Eldrin multiclass on par with humans in most cases, with a free military melee weapon and skill.
Is there much rhyme or reason to the prerequisites? Because these come in all over the place. I'd lean towards prerequisites balanced with the ability score synergy and role redundancy of potential combos. They're flavorful and very much what I considered doing with the basic buy-in feats. I really like it, but I think the specific feats may need work. I've examined two so far; there's a lot of combinations to think about.
-Arcane Apprentice-
Cleric can walk in with 13 Int, which doesn't do anything else for 'em. Decent Wis synergy.
Warlocks need to spend one feat. Minor int synergy.
Anyone other than cleric or warlock needs to spend 2 feats. Only warlord has any Int synergy. 1 Feat for human/eldrin (who can get a better Int too).
Real prerequisite: Int 13, 0-2 feats.
-Champion's Squire-
Eldrin or Human warlord can walk in. Good Cha & Str synergy.
Other warlords need 1 feat (skill training religion).
Eldrin/Dwarf Clerc. Needs 1 feat (light shield), Str 13. Good Str Synergy, decent Wis and Cha synergy (Dwarf get extra Wis).
Other clerics need two feats (shield + weapon), Str 13.
Fighter, needs 2 feats [1 for human/eldrin] (religion and diplomacy training) Good Str synergy, minor Wis synergy. Role redundancy.
Warlock - Needs Military weapon, 1 skill (eldrin get both again, dwarves have the weapon), Shield, Str 13, Chainmail, Con 13. 4 feats, Str 13, Con 13 (eldrin only need 2 feats, dwarves 3). Good Cha synergy.
Ranger - Needs 2 skills, Str & Con 13, Shields, Chainmail. 4 feats or 3 for Eldrin/Human. Potentially good Str synergy, minor wis synergy.
Rogue - Needs two skills, Light Shields, Chainmail, Str 13 & Con 13. 4 feats(3 human eldrin), Str & Con 13. Potentially some Cha or Str synergy.
Wizard - Str & Con 13, Leather, Chainmail, Light Shield, Military Melee, Diplomacy. Eldrin 3 feats, dwarves & humans 4, everyone else 5. Str 13, Con 13.
Real Prerequisites: Str 13, Con 13, Cha 13, 0-5 feats. 1st level proficiencies may allow you to ignore the Str 13 / Con 13.
I find it odd that a paladin can multiclass to wizard for two feats, but the wizard needs 5 to become a paladin. Eldrin require one fewer either way, which is actually very flavorful, but may intrude into half elf territory. In this case I'd recommend dropping the heavy armor, it doesn't hurt any of the best case options, but eases the pain for worst by two feats, while still requiring some effort towards defense for a shield. It also drops the hidden Con 13, which a paladin doesn't really use, but leaves in a Str 13 in most cases which is good for paladins.
As for the half-elf fix, what about half-elves not needing to meet the prerequisites of the multiclass feat for the class they choose a power from?
Finally, I noticed that your generic paragon path gives a 22nd level power at 21st. Typo?
Is there much rhyme or reason to the prerequisites? Because these come in all over the place. I'd lean towards prerequisites balanced with the ability score synergy and role redundancy of potential combos. They're flavorful and very much what I considered doing with the basic buy-in feats. I really like it, but I think the specific feats may need work. I've examined two so far; there's a lot of combinations to think about.
-Arcane Apprentice-
Cleric can walk in with 13 Int, which doesn't do anything else for 'em. Decent Wis synergy.
Warlocks need to spend one feat. Minor int synergy.
Anyone other than cleric or warlock needs to spend 2 feats. Only warlord has any Int synergy. 1 Feat for human/eldrin (who can get a better Int too).
Real prerequisite: Int 13, 0-2 feats.
-Champion's Squire-
Eldrin or Human warlord can walk in. Good Cha & Str synergy.
Other warlords need 1 feat (skill training religion).
Eldrin/Dwarf Clerc. Needs 1 feat (light shield), Str 13. Good Str Synergy, decent Wis and Cha synergy (Dwarf get extra Wis).
Other clerics need two feats (shield + weapon), Str 13.
Fighter, needs 2 feats [1 for human/eldrin] (religion and diplomacy training) Good Str synergy, minor Wis synergy. Role redundancy.
Warlock - Needs Military weapon, 1 skill (eldrin get both again, dwarves have the weapon), Shield, Str 13, Chainmail, Con 13. 4 feats, Str 13, Con 13 (eldrin only need 2 feats, dwarves 3). Good Cha synergy.
Ranger - Needs 2 skills, Str & Con 13, Shields, Chainmail. 4 feats or 3 for Eldrin/Human. Potentially good Str synergy, minor wis synergy.
Rogue - Needs two skills, Light Shields, Chainmail, Str 13 & Con 13. 4 feats(3 human eldrin), Str & Con 13. Potentially some Cha or Str synergy.
Wizard - Str & Con 13, Leather, Chainmail, Light Shield, Military Melee, Diplomacy. Eldrin 3 feats, dwarves & humans 4, everyone else 5. Str 13, Con 13.
Real Prerequisites: Str 13, Con 13, Cha 13, 0-5 feats. 1st level proficiencies may allow you to ignore the Str 13 / Con 13.
I find it odd that a paladin can multiclass to wizard for two feats, but the wizard needs 5 to become a paladin. Eldrin require one fewer either way, which is actually very flavorful, but may intrude into half elf territory. In this case I'd recommend dropping the heavy armor, it doesn't hurt any of the best case options, but eases the pain for worst by two feats, while still requiring some effort towards defense for a shield. It also drops the hidden Con 13, which a paladin doesn't really use, but leaves in a Str 13 in most cases which is good for paladins.
As for the half-elf fix, what about half-elves not needing to meet the prerequisites of the multiclass feat for the class they choose a power from?
Finally, I noticed that your generic paragon path gives a 22nd level power at 21st. Typo?
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A like this idea, a lot. But the requirements still need to be adjusted and between classes and races fairly. Generally, they should favor half elves and humans, and controllers should be harder to qualify for, and defenders easier. Reason for this is simple: controller powers are stronger, and defender power weaker. A Fighter that can throw a fireball is better off then a Wizard that can hit someone hard. Thats why the difference in proficiencies and hit points and surges are there, to compensate.Destil said:
Removing all reqs for the half-elf would negate this balance, so perhaps they should get reduction of the multiclass reqs by one feat, along with ignoring ability score requirements.
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Nifft said:@ Destil: Whew, thought I'd messed up.
Those are things I'm fixing with this revision. (And in the core rules, there's no way for you to get the Warlock's Curse unless you start as a Warlock.)
Cheers, -- N
Eh, I thought is was implied. You can't get the benefit of the pact unless you have Warlock's Curse, so if you get to benefit from the pact once per encounter, you have to be able to curse once per encounter.
--Kylone
Nifft said:
This seems overcosted, the prerequisites seem a bit steep. I like the cantrips but they usually are more flavor than power for the character. That said I would rather have them than one of the 1st lv at will combat spells. That seems to trade off about evenly with the players handbook feat. However you lose getting the Arcane spell for free. Instead you add 2 prerequisites, having the Arcane skill and the Ritual Caster feat. For this you get "three Rituals for free". The thing is low level rituals don't cost you anything but time really anyway. A ritual book cost 50gp. You would probably take this feat at a low level and low level rituals would probably be easy to get. You could copy them from a wizard in your party if there was one and if you couldn't NPC wizards that the PC encountered would most likely have them. I would add getting the Arcane skill back in and drop the Ritual Caster prerequisites and getting the free rituals.
Nifft
Penguin Herder
Destil, thank you! Specifics follow.
kylone, I think I've read the whole PHB by now, but I could have missed something -- where do you get that multi-class Warlocks can use Curses & Pact Boons at all? Their multi-class feat just gives them an attack once per encounter.
Exen Trik, yeah, I don't know exactly what to do about Half-Elves, other than try to make their racial ability useful. I'd like to give them some extra Con-focused feats, since Dwarves & Dragonborn both benefit from Con more than Half-Elves.
I know Half-Elves were the best multiclassers in 2e, but in 3e that changed drastically. Perhaps they need a different niche in 4e.
Miar, the follow-on feats for those multiclassing into Wizard are strong, and the implicit Wizard class feature (choose one of two spells) granted by the power swap feats is quite strong too. I can't price the power swap feats higher for a Wizard, so reducing the power of the "entry" feat is what I did instead. Getting to swap your Daily & Utility powers is strong IMHO, and the ability to swap an Encounter for 2/Encounter uses of an At-Will also seems strong.
In that light, does the higher cost make sense?
Regarding the rhyme & reason: I tried to look at all the most "profitable" routes, and penalize them. I also tried to ensure at least one skill required was "easy", while the other would cost a feat (or being an Eladrin).
Bah, I hate Half-Elves.
Cheers, -- N
kylone, I think I've read the whole PHB by now, but I could have missed something -- where do you get that multi-class Warlocks can use Curses & Pact Boons at all? Their multi-class feat just gives them an attack once per encounter.
Exen Trik, yeah, I don't know exactly what to do about Half-Elves, other than try to make their racial ability useful. I'd like to give them some extra Con-focused feats, since Dwarves & Dragonborn both benefit from Con more than Half-Elves.
I know Half-Elves were the best multiclassers in 2e, but in 3e that changed drastically. Perhaps they need a different niche in 4e.
Miar, the follow-on feats for those multiclassing into Wizard are strong, and the implicit Wizard class feature (choose one of two spells) granted by the power swap feats is quite strong too. I can't price the power swap feats higher for a Wizard, so reducing the power of the "entry" feat is what I did instead. Getting to swap your Daily & Utility powers is strong IMHO, and the ability to swap an Encounter for 2/Encounter uses of an At-Will also seems strong.
In that light, does the higher cost make sense?
Your points are excellent, and I admit I didn't give nearly enough thought to the Wizard -> Paladin route. Dropping heavy armor is good, since Clerics don't get Shields anymore, and since armor is its own reward.Destil said:
Regarding the rhyme & reason: I tried to look at all the most "profitable" routes, and penalize them. I also tried to ensure at least one skill required was "easy", while the other would cost a feat (or being an Eladrin).
Eeeeeeenh. I'd rather not tie multi-classing so much into racial fixes -- a Half-Elf should be balanced in a single class or with a multiclass. This is a bit hypocritical of me, since Humans and Eladrin multiclass better under my system, and that could easily be seen as a racial benefit (which IMHO both needed)... but both could be effective without multiclassing, and multiclassing isn't the only good use of their racial benefits.Destil said:
Bah, I hate Half-Elves.
Yes, thanks!Destil said:
Cheers, -- N
Primitive Screwhead
First Post
Nifft said:
Actually I dropped in to say the same thing. My first 4e character is using the RAW multiclass as a Ranger/Wizard at first level. The character is only dabbler and I don't currently plan on taking any further powers from the mage class. To build this character under your rules I would need two additional feats {Skill training Arcane and Ritual Casting}.
While I agree that the follow on feats are powerful, this version means that you won't have any mage dabblers, such as my character is going to be. The entry cost is too high to justify not following through with the further power swap feats. Basically its three feats to gain two cantrips and the option to spend more feats to get spells....
When I have time I will wander back in to check out the rest of the post
[edit] Half-Elves are better dabblers across the board. My first run at my character was going to be a half-elf with a Mage ability, but then I decided I wanted ritual casting as well. It was 'cheaper' to go human and get the multi-class and Arcane skill training in one shot.
The half-elf is the only race that can dabble in a second class, via thier racial ablity, and then multi-class to a third class with the feat tree...
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Nifft said:
If you are thinking of doing the multi class thing all the way through it does make sense in some ways. If a character was only looking at taking the entry feat and would never be taking the additional feats though it seems to high. This seems to preclude the character that has just a tad of wizard backround training. I also would never make a feat that gave you what time and gold would.
