Ninja Questions [Complete Adventurer]

[rowport]

Hiya, folks. I finished modifying my formerly rogue/cleric/ex-monk to be a CAd Ninja/cleric instead. (I realize that from a pure game mechanics POV, this may be a silly move since the class is relatively weak, but it 'feels' cleaner.) Now I have some questions as I struggle to understand Sudden Strike (or, as I like to call it, "Sneak Attack, Lesser").

The two big differences between Sudden Strike (SS) and Sneak Attack (SA) are:
1. no subdual damage SS
2. no SS with flanking- ONLY when opponent denied DEX modifier

My Holy Assassin character would never bother with a non-lethal attack, so no biggie on the first one. The second one looks massive, since it is darn hard to consistently deny DEX mods... but that is where the Ninja Ki Powers should help.

The first Ki Power is Ghost Step (Invisible), which is the only one I am worried about now since I am low enough level to only get that one. It is also the biggest one affecting SS, since my dude can go invisible as a swift action, then close and attack, while his opponent is then denied his DEX bonus. All sounds good so far; of course, tactically, I see much invisible stabbing in his future. Here are my questions:
1. the power reads: "...become invisible for 1 round..." Since this does not say "...as the spell invisibility" or some such, I assume that unlike the spell effect, he will not become visible when attacking. Is this right?
2. If so, does the 1 round duration extend only through his action, or until his next action? IOW, does he go invisible, attack, then stay that way through other opponents attacks (with miss chance, etc.) until his next action? Or just until he finishes attack, move, or whatever within that first round?
3. Given #1 and #2, It might make sense to sometimes forego the invisible attack SS damage, just do normal damage, and go invisible at the end of his other actions to last for the next (opponent's) round? Or, does 1 round only mean HIS round? I guess I am confused whether this power is effective for defense at all, or really only for sudden strikes.

As long as I am at it here, I might as well go on with my tactics questions...

So, he also has Combat Expertise (which is a pre-req for Improved Feint, another way to Bluff his way into a denied DEX bonus situation). Using Improved Feint as a move action is nowhere near as easy or effective as Ghost Step (Invisible) as a swift action, of course, but at least he will have other options as needed for SS. That is clear enough. Using Combat Expertise itself is less clear to me, now.

I rarely (well, OK, never) actually used the Combat Expertise feat for its AC bonus, because his BAB sucks so bad already he would miss the lamest mook doing so. But now I am re-thinking that, especially since he came as close as possible to dying last session trying to fight melee straight-up; should I just know that he might miss a lot, and keep that AC cranked high anyway? He is already fairly tough to hit, but with a couple of points added, he will be almost untouchable at our level (5th). I kind of hate the idea of using up his very limited Ki Powers per day, then missing, because his BAB is effectively crap.

What say you, tactical geniuses?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

1. I believe it says, "for one round." One round durations begin on your turn, and end just before your initiative next round. He'd remain invisible until just before he acted.

2. I've found that Combat Expertise is useful when Feinting. What you've done is reduced your enemy's AC. Thus, you've improved your own chances to hit. Do this once or twice, and you've probably got a pretty good idea of just how high you need to roll in order to beat your opponent's [lower] AC. If it's a large enough change, sacrifice some of the difference to CE to up your AC.

For instance, you've determined that you need roughly an 16 to hit your opponent when they aren't denied Dex, and a 10 when they are (darn those Dodge bonuses! ). Consider changing 2-4 points into AC through CE - especially if you can get into flanking, too! You've still improved your chances to hit over normal, and now you've improved your defenses, as well.

 

[rowport]

Thanks, Patron! That helps.

1. So, I did understand the "1 round" duration correctly- that kind of rocks! Wow. So, on my initiative round, I can use Ghost Step (Invisible) as a swift action, keep my full BAB not using Combat Expertise at this point, move to melee range, attack and get Sudden Strike damage. Then, I stay invisible until my next initiative, which means that my opponent has to deal with a 50% miss chance on his return attack! Sweet!

2. Or, if I want to use the Improved Feint approach, I use Imp Feint as my move action, use Combat Expertise to boost my AC, and then hold my attack until melee range and still get a Sudden Strike! Sweet!

Thanks, dude! I can see my combat effectiveness rising pretty dramatically in the near future. Sometimes using feats and abilities is not so clear to me. I appreciate the help.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

1. I doubt it, rowport. IMO, the invisibility is dispelled once you make an attack, just like for the spell.

Edit: I've always assumed that the invisibility condition is dispelled once you make an attack, unless it's specifically specified... Am I wrong in thinking that?

AR

 

[Sithobi1]

It doesn't specify that it is dispelled after an attack in the special abilities and conditions part of the SRD, the only place it says that is in the spell description, so it only is dispelled after attacking/hostile actions if you cast the spell. Any other effect that gives invisibility does not get dispelled unless it specifically says so.

 

[rowport]

Well, my literal reading of the text is "...for 1 round", which does not say anything about the invisibility effect ending when you attack. But, that really does seem too good to be true.

Here is the other weird thing: I look at the other Ki Power abilities, and at level 6 Ninjas get Ki Dodge, which uses a Ki power as a swift action to get concealment (20% miss chance); and at level 18 Ninjas get Greater Ki Dodge which does the same for total concealment (50% miss chance). Both of those power durations read "...for 1 round."

But, if you can get Invisible (which does not end when attacking) at 2nd level, for total concealment, why in the world would you ever use the other higher-level abilities??? Especially since Invisibility allows for Sudden Strike, when the other two powers would not do that.

Hmm. For my character's sake, I hope that I am wrong, but I am kind of sensing errata bait... Any other feedback out there? Thanks, guys, this is awesome help for me.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

So unless it specifically states that it works like the invisibility spell, the invisible condition isn't lost if an attack occurs? Interesting.

Since Ghost Step is a Su ability (and not Sp), I guess that must be right...

 

[rowport]

Altamont-

That is how I am reading Ghost Step (Invisible) at this point, too, but I agree that it really does seem... too good?

What do you think about Ki Dodge and Greater Ki Dodge in that context, then? Why would you ever choose to spend a Ki point dodging for concealment (and no Sudden Strike) when instead you could use Ghost Step (Invisible) to get total concealment AND a Sudden Strike?

I mean, I am all for my character benefitting, but that just seems... strange...

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

2. Or, if I want to use the Improved Feint approach, I use Imp Feint as my move action, use Combat Expertise to boost my AC, and then hold my attack until melee range and still get a Sudden Strike! Sweet!

I'm not sure what you're saying is ok.

You only get 1 move action and 1 standard action in a round. You will use your move action to Improve Feint your opponent. You'll need to use your standard action to make an attack, if you want to deliver your Sudden Strike, since when Feinting in combat, you have to make your attack on or before your next turn (per the SRD).

You could always ready an action to attack the person you Feinted if said person comes within range, but there's no telling if your opponent will come up to you.

Unless I've made another mistake in reading the rules, Improved Feint will work best if you are already next to the target you wish to Sudden Strike...

AR

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

I guess the reasoning must be that since Truee Seeing is of higher level than See Invisibility, Blur-like concealment can be better than Invisibility...

I agree that the power is weak compared to Ghost Step, EVEN if a ninja would reappear after an attack...

AR