No full attack option?

[Counterspin]

I presume the ranger is using the Rapid Shot from SWSE which gives you an extra die of damage to your attack rather than requiring another attack roll.

 

[Celebrim]

Most of this was evident from the sample fight versus the dragon. We knew that there was no full attack because neither the fighter nor the dragon used one.

The biggest problem in losing full attacks is handling attacks on multiple opponents in a round elegantly.

Based on the sample fight versus the dragon and a few more hints, we know how thats going to work too.

1) 'Triggered attacks' : I'm not sure of the exact mechanics, but it was clear that the dragon got to make attacks in responce to PC actions. Similarly, we've seen examples of attacks made by PC's in responce to NPC actions. The mechanic will probably be something similar too 'If you are attacked by a character with lower level than you, and he misses, then you can make an immediate counterattack.' Similarly, the dragon's tail strike mechanic is probably something similar to, 'Whenever you are flanked, you can make an immediate counterattack.' Essentially, this is the cleave mechanic on steroids.
2) Combat Talent Trees: Depending on the weapon that you use, there will probably be mechanics similar to the 'rapid fire' feat for archers, allowing you to make multiple attacks with various restrictions (penalties to hit, lower combat damage bonus, restricted to multiple opponents, only if you hit the first time, only if you cleaved, etc.) There will likely be talent trees that give you more triggered attack options as well (ei, when surprised, when flanked, when missed, when hit, etc.). Given the emphasis on large groups of opponents, this means that PC's will probably be making (on average) more attack rolls per round than in 3rd edition. Ditto for the DM.

My biggest gripe is that movement in and of itself neither makes combat interesting nor 'cinematic'. For example of what badly corregraphed combat looks like, see the 'climatic' fight scene in Kevin Costner's Robin Hood: Prince of Theives. Lots of movement, but its all really silly and uninteresting. For an example of good fight corregraphy, see Errol Flynn Robin Hood or the climatic fight in 'Rob Roy'. The elements of the D20 system that tend to make combat cinematic are not the actions per se, and I greatly fear that the direction that 4e is taking to make combat more cinematic is actually one of my pet peeves with the D20 system. Or to put it more plainly, I love 'feats' but there is an element of thier design which really irks me (which tended to show up extensively in homebrew and third party feats), and 4e seems bent on reinforcing that part that I don't like. Namely, I never liked how feats served to open up new combat manuevers (ways to spend your actions) rather than simply making you better at them. If for example, you'd need a 'trip' feat in order to trip or a 'bullrush' feat in order to shove someone, I'd really have hated the 3e mechanics because it impaired rather than enabled.

The problem with 'special' hit point bypassing combat manuevers in D&D (or practically any other game system) is that they are extremely hard to balance. Do them wrong, and it invalidates normal attack actions so that combat ends up being tripping, pushing, and grappling each other to death alla 'Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves' rather than the lengthy cinematic swordplay that we want. Ask anyone (ab)using Improved Trip how this works out.

Besides which, I think that we are largely chasing a false dream if we make 'cinematic' a core value. Pen and paper games will never compete with visual media like movies or video games for cinematic eye candy.

 

[F4NBOY]

I presume the ranger is using the Rapid Shot from SWSE which gives you an extra die of damage to your attack rather than requiring another attack roll.

Maybe. The text could be just fluffy description.

"The sharpshooter was dead before the third arrow struck home."

That could mean in game terms that he actually rolled the damage of the second arrow, ( the first was that immediate attack, and 2nd and 3rd the attacks that could be from SAGA Rapid Shot) and the enemy was already deade before he could roll the damage from the third.

But maybe that's just heavy fluff text...

 

[Wystan]

As I said in a different Thread

I think they may be looking to take a page from Spycraft - 2 Actions per turn. Whether this is 2 Attack Actions, 1 Move and 1 Attack, or 2 Move Actions is up to the player. This would easily explain the 3 Arrows from the first Level character - 1 for the Counter Attack, and 2 for the 2 Attack Actions. If I recall this also still allows a 5 Foot Step to be taken as well...

Just my 2cp

 

[ruleslawyer]

[Mods, can we get a merge of this thread and the other one on full attacks?]

In case we don't get a merge:

For those of you who have played SWSE, including the double attack, triple attack, etc feat options, a question: Does making these into feats really speed up combat? I get the feeling that it just reintroduces full attacking as a special case, which seems to me to potentially slow down combat. How does this actually work in play?

 

[F4NBOY]

[Mods, can we get a merge of this thread and the other one on full attacks?]

In case we don't get a merge:

For those of you who have played SWSE, including the double attack, triple attack, etc feat options, a question: Does making these into feats really speed up combat? I get the feeling that it just reintroduces full attacking as a special case, which seems to me to potentially slow down combat. How does this actually work in play?

I didn't play too much with melee characters in SWSE, but the jedi guy wanted to be the dual lightsaber type of jedi. When he died, at level 8, i think he managed to actually use his dual attack feats, throughout the whole campaing, less times than I have fingers in my hands. So pretty much wasted feats. Multiple melee attacks characters are not a good option in SWSE. So answering your question it doesn't work so well for melee character. I'm focusing in the melee attack because afterall, we are talking how the SWSE rules could work in D&D.

I don't think it speeds up play that much. The characters that have feats that allow them to make multiple attacks still make lots of rolls, but the rolls always have the same modifiers. It's never +21/+21/+16/+15 but something like +18/+18/+18/+18. The penalty for 2w fighting is -10 for both hands, and lesses to -5/-2/none with the feats. The same with Double attack, which lets you make two attacks but with a penalty of -5 on both. Triple attack is one more attack with -10 on all attacks, so it's pretty much restricted iterative attacks, they are still there potentially.

 

[Cadfan]

Because the attack bonuses are all the same, ruleslawyer, it takes a little less effort to roll. No more rolling multiple dice, then trying to figure out where they go, then going back and saying that you wouldn't have attacked that monster 3 times if you'd known you'd kill it in two hits, you want to redo your third attack against the monster next to it, blah, blah, blah. You just make a certain number of die rolls, basically all the same.

 

[ruleslawyer]

So then "-5 to all attack rolls until the start of your next turn" means -5 to both your primary and secondary attack? So it's basically Rapid Strike (Rapid Shot for melee attacks)?

Hmm; I guess that's a *bit* faster, though more of a halfway improvement than I might have expected. Interestin'.

 

[F4NBOY]

So then "-5 to all attack rolls until the start of your next turn" means -5 to both your primary and secondary attack? So it's basically Rapid Strike (Rapid Shot for melee attacks)?

Hmm; I guess that's a *bit* faster, though more of a halfway improvement than I might have expected. Interestin'.

Yes and No.
There IS the Rapid Strike feat." When using a melee weapon, you may make two strikes as a single attack against a single target. You take a -2 penalty on you attack roll, but you dealt +1 die of damage with a successfull attack." It's like Power Attack, you trade bonus attack for more damage.

and there is the Double Attack feat " When you use the full attack action, you may make one additional attack when wielding such a weapon. However, you take a -5 penalty on all attack rolls until your next turn because you're trading precision for speed." It's the iterative attack feat, the prerequisite is BAB +6., but it's worse because the -5 is for both attacks and not just or the second one. There are talents that reduce this penalty.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Yeah, sorry, I got that. I was analogizing to 3e rather than to SWSE's own implementation of the Rapid Strike/Rapid Shot feat.