No Man's Land (Recruitment Closed... Sort of)

[Voidrazor]

I didn't know. Wow! Thanks Avalon.

 

[Insight]

Wow. Guess I kinda stuck my hand in a hornet's nest there.

I'll preface this by saying my earlier comment(s) were meant to be tongue in cheek.

This does underscore one occasional problem with high level play though. You have people who love tweaking characters and doing the numbers to precisely take exactly -this- many levels of -that- to get -this- ability which when combined with -that- ability will...etc etc.

And you have people that just want to play a simple 20th level monk. Or wizard. And while you CAN tweak and optimize those characters, not everyone wants to...or can. So you do get wildly differing power levels between PC's.

Sometimes that's a problem, sometimes less so. Like Jemal was saying, if everyone has their own thing going, that's usually fine. But D&D is primarily a game about combat, so it's not really fair to compare noncombat abilities (like trapfinding) to combat abilities (like being unhittable, or doing astronomical levels of damage). No one wants to be "trapboy."

I can't blame Jemal or anyone else for optimizing and such. I do it myself, and while I do it to a lesser extent, that lesser extent isn't because I'm somehow truer to the game or whatever. It's because I don't have the patience to cobble as many of those rules together.

I guess it's only really a problem when it underscores differences in the kind of game people want. Jemal likes high power, "fantasy superhero" games. Someone else might prefer a more...demure approach. And while -any- level 20 character is capable of amazing feats, not all level 20 characters are created equally.

Well, my character concept is completely shot. Since I don't min/max my character into a huge pile of stats and try to make one that has a personality, I can't imagine fitting in with twink-alots. He can't do ANYTHING that either the broken warforged or the twinked feral saint swashbuckler half-vampire troll quarter celestial (add three more templates here) characters don't do a heckuva lot better.

Here's the problem with a group of mixed min/maxers and people that try to play real characters. The people who try to play real characters always get screwed. See, the DM is going to have to come up with creatures that can hit twink boy, and those guys will hit my character EVERY SINGLE TIME. That doesn't give me a fighting chance.

Thus, the real problem with high level D&D. When you throw open the doors to everything, you are really making it hard for those of us who a) don't own every single book and b) want to create a concept character rather than a twink.

I was proud not long ago for making a ninja/shadowdancer that had AC in the mid 40's, and did 30ish damage per hit using Sudden Strike.

Sigh. Back to the drawing board.

Unfortunately, that character and mine would be laughed out of this game. I don't think I have the time or patience to compete with the twinks of the world. I just want to play a game and try to make something of it. The constant oneupsmanship is very very tired.

 

[Insight]

New Note RE: Characters being pointless.

I try not to step on toes, but I like making my characters cool and ass-kicking.
I'd rather play Batman than robin, Superman than Lois Lane, Wolverine than Cyclops, Hercules than.. um.. some other ancient dude. And yes, there's a reason my examples are mostly super heroes. It Fits. Really high level characters can fall a thousand feet, stand up, and then face off against a hundred foes.. That's not normal, that's SUPER, that's INCREDIBLE, that's LEGENDARY. That's why I play, so that I can forget how normal and unremarkable I am, and pretend to be someone who CAN make a difference.

that being said, I know what it's like to have people play a character who makes you feel useless.. Believe it or not, In most of the RL gaming groups I've been in, I'm usually the most underpowered character. But the only time it matters is if somebody's doing YOUR job better than you.

Who cares how high someone else's AC is unless thats what YOUR character is based on doing? So the Barbarian hits for 100 damage a shot on his Greataxe.. shouldn't matter to you unless you're a Greatsword fighter. The dervish can hit 12 times a round, so what, you're a mage!

My point is, I try making characters around a concept that nobody else is basing their character off so that nobody's toes get stepped on (Mine OR Yours), which is why I chose the defense guy, so to anyone who's thinking of quiting b/c someone elses character makes their character pointless, ask yourself this... does it really? Can't your character do ANYTHING better than the other one?

You're completely missing the point, I'm afraid. If one person in the group is a min/maxer, they will always not only steal the show, but make it harder for everyone else to be effective in what they do.

If the bad guy needs a +57 attack bonus to even have a chance to hit you, what happens when he full attacks my guy with a much more reasonable 46 AC? Gets hit every time. If the DM goes the other way, and makes creatures that are average for lvl 20, they can't do a damned thing to your character. Is the DM going to let you go around not getting challenged? Of course not. So he is forced to go with the more powerful foes, and hence the rest of us get to pay for it.

 

[Darimaus]

Sorry to all who had their characters missed on my overview (especially yours Bloodweaver1, I skipped over yours by mistake) theres only so much number crunching one can do in a day (especially in his precious few hours before work ) I shall continue with the character crunching tommorow, same bat time, same bat channel. Keep em coming guys.

Questions wil be answered at the same time, I don't feel like sifting around the twinking/not twinking arguments right now either

I will say this though, the advantage to a larger, open game setting is that PCs don't have to compare themselves to each other or feel left out and useless. Two fighters don't have to hang around with each other, so they don't have to be sharing an overlapping role.

 

[Voidrazor]

Here's my character so far. I'm still in the process of doing skills, powers & equipment. So those thing won't add up yet but most of the game balance effecting stuff should already be listed.

Lowryllyth

Female  Lawful Evil Elan Totemist 2 / Erudite 6 / Crinti Shadow Marauder 5 / Slayer 7

Strength     20  (+5)   13 base +6 Enchantment +1 Level
Dexterity    17  (+3)  11 base +6 Enchantment
Constitution 22  (+6)  16 base +6 Enchantment
Intelligence 32  (+11) 17 base +6 Enchantment +5 Inherent +4 levels
Wisdom       20  (+5)  14 base +6 Enchantment
Charisma     19  (+4)   15 base -2 Racial +6 Enchantment

Size: Medium
Height: 5' 8"
Weight: 102 lb
Skin: Black
Eyes: Blue
Hair: White
Age: 450 years

HP: [url=http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=973751]192[/url]
AC: 33 (10 base +3 Dex +8 Armor +5 Deflection +6 Monk +1 Insight) 25 Touch 30 Flat-footed
Initiative: +5
BAB: +16
PP: 192 
XP: 

Fort 25 (8 base +6 Con +5 resistance +1 Ioun Stone +1 Luckstone +4 Racial*)
Ref 25 (11 base +3 Dex +5 resistance +1 Ioun Stone +1 Luckstone +4 Racial*)
Will 27 (11 base +5 Wis +5 resistance +1 Ioun Stone +1 Luckstone +4 Racial*)
* Racial bonus costs 1pp, always spent

Feats
1st Track
3rd Mounted Combat, Overchannel (Bonus)
6th Stealthy
8th Midnight Augmentation (Bonus)
9th Practiced Manifester
12th Elan Resilience
15th Leadership
18th Metamorphic Transfer 

Skill Points 183
Skill Name	         Ability   Total	Mod	Ranks	Misc.
Bluff                     Cha      19 =        +4       +15
Concentration	          Con	   29 = 	+6	+23	
Gather Information	  Cha	    7 = 	+4	+3	+2 [know local] 
Handle Animal             Cha        8 =        +4        +4
Hide                      Dex       19 =        +3        +16  (8 cc)
Knowledge (arcana)	  Int	   12 = 	+11	+1	
Knowledge (architecture)  Int	   12 = 	+11	+1	
Knowledge (dungeoneering) Int	   15 = 	+11	+4	
Knowledge (geography)	  Int	   12 = 	+11     +1	
Knowledge (history)	  Int	   12 = 	+11	+1	
Knowledge (local)	  Int	   12 = 	+11	+1	
Knowledge (nature)	  Int	   16 = 	+11	+5	
Knowledge (nobility)	  Int	   12 = 	+11	+1	
Knowledge (psionics)	  Int	   12 = 	+11	+1
Knowledge (religion)	  Int	   12 = 	+11	+1	
Listen	                  Wis	   28 = 	+5	+23	
Move Silently             Dex     19 =       +3       +16 (8 cc)
Ride                      Dex     11 =       +3       +8
Spot	                  Wis	   28 = 	+5	+23	
Psicraft	          Int	   26 = 	+11	+15
Skill Tricks: Clarity of Vision, Collector of Stories


Repertoire
1st Offensive Prescience, Call to Mind, Force Screen, Defensive Precognition, Offensive Precognition, Psionic Grease, Synchronicity (Comp Psi p.103), Claws of the Beast*, Astral Construct*, Metaphysical Claw*, Expansion*, Adrenalin Boost* (Comp Psi p.78)
2nd Hustle*, Energy Stun, Forced Sense Link, Psionic Tongues, Psychoportive Shelter (Comp Psi p.97), 
3rd Dispel Psionics, Energy Burst, Telekinetic Thrust, Telekinetic Force, Greater Concealing Amorpha*, Claws of the Vampire*, Dimension Slide*
4th Correspond, Psionic Dimension Door, Psychic Reformation, Metamorphosis*, Psionic Open Chakra (Incarnum p.107), Schism*, Tower of Iron Will*, Psionic Dominate*
5th Anticipitory Strike (Comp Psi p.78), Power Resistance, Psionic Plane Shift, Psionic True Seeing, Second Chance*, Mind Probe*
6th Inconstant Location (Comp Psi p.91), Mind Over Energy (Comp Psi p.93), Psionic Contingency, Temporal Acceleration

Equipment 
Belt of Magnificence 200k
Dorje of Claws of the Vampire 9th ML 20,250
Dorje of Expansion 6th ML 4,500
Dorje of Inconstant Location 49,500
Hat of Disguise 1,800
+5 Tome of Clear Though 137,500
Boots of Speed 12k
Cloak of Resistance +5 25k
Bracers of Armor +8 64k
Monk's Vest 19,500 (Monks belt)
Ring of Deflection +5 50k
Ring of Invisibility 20k
Rod of Absorption 50k
Cautious Warrior Psicrown 32,063
Luckstone 20k
Pale Green Ioun Stone 30k

Used Power Stones 5,750

 

[zeb.hillard]

Well, my character concept is completely shot. Since I don't min/max my character into a huge pile of stats and try to make one that has a personality, I can't imagine fitting in with twink-alots. He can't do ANYTHING that either the broken warforged or the twinked feral saint swashbuckler half-vampire troll quarter celestial (add three more templates here) characters don't do a heckuva lot better.

I would just like to note that, for the first time in the existence of the book, book of 9 Swords wasn't included on the omfg itz so twinkz listing.

 

[Bloodweaver1]

Fully updated the crunch. Obsidian should be good to go.

If the consensus is that this build is too much or if Darimaus drops the hammer, I have no problem with generating something else.

How did you become large sized? Warforged are medium sized and WJ's and FB's don't give a size increase.

Paid a Psion to cast permenant Expansion on him plus he is wearing Strongarm Bracers which gives him the Powerful Build feature.


-Blood

 

[Bloodweaver1]

I would just like to note that, for the first time in the existence of the book, book of 9 Swords wasn't included on the omfg itz so twinkz listing.

True, but that is probably because no one really knows what Bo9S can do at high levels. I would imagine that your build's damage output is very close to mine.

-Blood

 

[zeb.hillard]

I went kind of light on it. No weapon that gives a Swift True Strike 1/day or anything to help out. But, two full attacks in a round...the option to hit once for +100 damage, four times normal damage, or 2d6 Con are still there.

I made him more to help others with White Raven tactics (Though your character would probably benefit GREATLY with the charging Maneuvers I picked...+50 damage on a charge you can take when it isn't your turn is fairly nice) and to soften up enemies so others can finish them off be it through weakening their saves or stunning them without a save chance. No death or 20d6 on a made save or anything.

 

[Avalon®]

Paid a Psion to cast permenant Expansion on him plus he is wearing Strongarm Bracers which gives him the Powerful Build feature.


-Blood

Where are Strongarm Bracers from?