No Man's Land (Recruitment Closed... Sort of)

[Insight]

I want to apologize to anyone who believes I have in any way offended them, as that was certainly not my intention. I guess my way of airing concerns may have been construed as a personal attack, and it was not meant to be as such.

I've been around the block enough to know that a game just isn't worth all of this headache, regardless of the source of it. Please accept my sincere apology; I won't be bringing up this subject in the future.

 

[Kafkonia]

Okay, I feel like I've overlooked the answer to this, but I can't find it...

Are we to add in the 1/4 level stat increases, or are they factored into the stat rolling you had us do?

 

[moritheil]

Darimaus, having DMed 14-person parties before, let me just say that I appreciate how time-consuming build checking is. I've tried to explicitly state where all my bonuses are coming from. The only question I have is:

- Do you rule that a ninja's ki power: invisible lasts for one full round when used? (Every DM I have ever had has ruled this way due to the wording, but I just want to be clear.)

[I found the updated rules text: Druid wild shape works off alternate form now. I was also reminded of how shapechange works, courtesy of Jemal.]


760,000gp is the official recommended wealth level. I checked that number before putting it on my sheet the other day. Does anyone have the XP we are starting with? I know it's halfway to 21, but has anyone done the math? [Edit: Thanks, Jemal!]

[sblock=character]CHARACTER NAME : Daidoji Ichiru
RACE (ECL) : Human (+0)
CLASS (LEVEL) : Ninja 2/Druid 7/Daggerspell Shaper 9/Divine Oracle 2
... NET LEVEL : 20
ALIGNMENT : N
SIZE : Medium
SPEED : 30 ft
TYPE : Humanoid (Human)

Trained from youth to be an assassin, Ichiru was rescued by a kind hermit following a failed mission. From him he learned the virtues of nature. Now he uses his skills to ensure that none despoil the wilds. Having received dire omens of a threat that imperils the world, he has journeyed to the isle to stop it.

Books used: SRD, PHB, PHB II, C. Adv, C. Div, PGF, C. War, Eb., Und, MM2, BoED, BoVD

EXPERIENCE : xp
CASH : 760k gp

ABILITY SCORES 15 10 14 16 16 17
Str 16 (+3) (10/base 6/enh)
Dex 20 (+5) (15/base 5/inh)
Con 22 (+6) (16/base 6/enh)
Int 16 (+3) (16/base)
Wis 33 (+11) (17/base 5/bon 5/inh 6/enh)
Cha 14 (+2) (14/base)

SAVES
FORT +13 (5/dru 3/ds 6/con)
REF +16 (3/nin 2/dru 6/ds 5/dex) Evasion
WILL +27 (5/dru 6/ds 3/divo 11/wis 2/ki)

Legendary Tiger: Str 38, Dex 23, Con 30, Int 16, Wis 33, Cha 14, (large), nat armor 10, +8 hide/ms (16 in grass)
w/ Growth: Str 46, Dex 21, Con 34, Int 16, Wis 33, Cha 14, (huge), DR 10/magic, +4 resist, 10' reach

Legendary Tiger Form
FORT +18 (5/dru 3/ds 10/con)
REF +17 (3/nin 2/dru 6/ds 6/dex) Evasion
WILL +27 (5/dru 6/ds 3/divo 11/wis 2/ki)

w/ Growth
FORT +24 (5/dru 3/ds 12/con 4/res)
REF +20 (3/nin 2/dru 6/ds 5/dex 4/res) Evasion
WILL +31 (5/dru 6/ds 3/divo 11/wis 2/ki 4/res)

HIT POINTS : 13d6 + 7d8 +120 = to be rolled
ARMOR CLASS
Standard : 34 (10/base 5/dex 11/wis 8/force armor)
Touch : 26 (10/base 5/dex 11/wis) 31 vs. incorp.
Flat-Foot : 29 (10/base 11/wis 8/force armor)


Legendary Tiger Form
Standard : 44 (10/base 6/dex 11/wis 8/force armor 10/nat -1/size)
Touch : 26 (10/base 6/dex 11/wis -1/size)
Flat-Foot : 38 (10/base 11/wis 8/force armor 10/nat -1/size)

INITIATIVE : +5 (5/dex)
BASE ATTACK : +13
RANGED : +18 (5/dex)
MELEE : +17 (3/str 1/enh) Dire Bear form: +31 (17/str 1/enh)

WEAPONS [DC 24 poison stored]
+1 sure striking spellstoring spellblade magebane dagger [41002 gp; adamantium, overcomes align DR, redirect disintegrate]
+1 paralyzing spellblade magebane dagger [41002 gp; adamantium, will DC 17 or held; redirect greater dispel magic]

Magebane adds +2 to hit and +2d6 damage vs. arcane or Sp.
When wildshaped the daggers become claws, but the bonuses and properties still apply.


LANGUAGES
Auran, Common, Druidic, Sylvan, Terran

RACIAL TRAITS
1 free feat, 1 extra skill point/level.

CLASS FEATURES
Ninja: AC bonus, 1d6 SA, ki power invisible (12/day), +2 will, trapfinding
Druid: Wild shape 3/day, Woodland stride, trackless step, wild empathy, animal companion, +2 to know (nat), survival
Daggerspell Shaper: Daggercast, move action wild shape, retain bonuses from gear (daggers, +str/con/dex), +3d6 SA
Wild shape +2/day; large and tiny.
Divine Oracle: Oracle Domain (+2 to Divination CL), +1 to Divination DC. Trap sense +1 Ac, +1 saves.
Prescient Sense (evasion in armor).

Casts: 7 druid + 8 shaper +2 oracle = as 17th druid (19 for divinations)
Wild shape: 5/day, 16 hrs, large/tiny.
Sneak attack: +4d6.
Wild empathy: 7/dip +2/ha +7/dru = +16.

FEATS
Cha 1 . Weapon Focus (dagger)
Cha 1 . Silent Spell
Cha 3 . TWF
Cha 6 . Natural Spell
Cha 9 . Savage Grapple: Add SA to grapple.
Cha12 . Still Spell
Cha15 . Skill Focus: Know (religion)
Cha18 . PGF Innate spell: Heal (lose 1 7th slot; gain Heal 3/day (sp).)
---------------[ Epic Threshold! ]---------------
Cha21 .
Cha24 .

SKILLS (5+9)*(6+4) +7*(4+4) +2*(2+4) = 140 +56 +12 = 208
There is considerable room to move levels around in this build.

Bluff +7 (5 ranks 2 cha) +2 to diplomacy, sleight, intimidate
Concentration +25 (23 ranks 6 con)
Diplomacy +7 (1 ranks 2 cha 2/bluff 2/sm)
Handle Animal +7 (5 ranks 2 cha) +2 to ride, wild empathy
Heal +12 (1 ranks 11 wis)
Know (Arcana) +8 (5 ranks 3 int) +2 to ka
Know (Nature) +28 (23 ranks 3 int 2/dru) +2 to survival
Know (Planes) +8 (5 ranks 3 int) +2 to survival
Know (Religion) +29 (23 ranks 3 int 3/feat) +2 to turning
Listen +16 (5 ranks 11 wis)
Search +4 (1 ranks 3 int)
Sense Motive +31 (20 ranks 11 wis) +2 to diplomacy
Sleight of Hand +27 (20 ranks 5 dex 2/bluff)
Survival +16 (1 ranks 11 wis 2/dru 2/kn)
Spellcraft +28 (23 ranks 3 int 2/ka)
Spot +31 (20 ranks 11 wis) Notice presence of active invisible creature: DC 20; unmoving DC 30.
Tumble +28 (23 ranks 5 dex) 150% bonus on defensive action AC

Spent 204 ranks

Tricks: 4 pts
Acrobatic Backstab (enemy flatfooted if you tumble past)
Collector of Stories (+5 know to identify creatures)



EQUIPMENT (total 648,584 gp 4sp)
Adventurer's Outfit [- gp]
Belt of Health [36000 gp; +6 con]
Gauntlets of Power [36000 gp; +6 str]
Periapt of Wisdom [36000 gp; +6 Wis]
Jade Circlet [1500 gp; also serves as focus for shapechange]
Gem of Spell Extending [3700 gp; Extend up to 6th level sp,

1/day]
Skill Trinket, Clarity of Vision [1000 gp; (DC 20 spot pinpoints all invis within 30')]
Skill Trinket, Back on your Feet [1000 gp; (as soon as you fall prone, stand immediately. No AOOs.)]
Skill Trinket, Conceal Spellcasting[1000 gp; (Sleight of hand disguises spellcasting; no AOOs etc.)]
Bracers of Armor +8 [64,000 gp; force AC 8]
Starmantle Cloak [132,000 gp; perm starmantle: ref DC 15 to halve magic weapon dmg]
Boots of Haste [12000 gp; haste 10 rounds/day]

+1 sure striking spellstoring spellblade magebane dagger [41002 gp; adamantium, overcomes align DR, redirect disintegrate]
+1 paralyzing spellblade magebane dagger [41002 gp; adamantium, will DC 17 or held; redirect greater dispel magic]
Tome +5 Wis [137,500 gp; consumed]
Tome +5 Dex [137,500 gp; consumed]
Strand of Prayer Beads [25,800 gp; beads of healing, karma, smiting]
Bead of healing Wearer can cast his choice of cure serious wounds, remove blindness/deafness, or remove disease.
Bead of karma Wearer casts his spells at +4 caster level. Effect lasts 10 minutes.
Bead of smiting Wearer can cast chaos hammer, holy smite, order’s wrath, or unholy blight (Will DC 17 partial).
Each special bead can be used once per day.


MW Composite Longbow [330 gp; Darkwood; 1d8 x3; in weightless storage]
Arrows, Cold Iron (20) [40 gp; in weightless storage]
Arrows, Silver (10) [30 gp; in weightless storage]
Arrows, Regular (40) [40 gp; in weightless storage]
Efficient Quiver [1800 gp]
Antitoxin x2 [100 gp; +5 Fort vs. poison 1 hr.]
Cold Iron Caltrops x5 [10 gp; in weightless storage]
Silk Rope [20 gp; 100', +2 use rope, 10 lbs.]
Pearl of Power I x4 [4000 gp; recall 4x 1st level spell]


Wand of Lesser Vigor [750 gp; 50 charges, fast healing 1 for 11 rounds]
Sacred Scabbard [4400 gp; Bless Weapon 3/day, CL4]
Antitoxin x1 [50 gp; +5 Fort vs. poison 1 hr.]

STUFF (14gp 4sp)

Hooded Lantern [7 gp]
Oil x10 [1 gp]
Shovel [2 gp]
Waterskin [1 gp]
Symbol x2 [2 gp]
Tindertwig [1 gp]
Bedroll [1 sp]
Parchment [2 sp]
Chalk x5 [5 cp]
Whetstone [2 cp]
Flask of water [3 cp]

DRUID SPELLS: 6 5+1 5+1 5+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1
BONUS: +11 — 3 3 3 2 2 2 2-1 1 1

0 - detect magic x2, detect poison, naturewatch, purify food and drink, read magic
1 - entangle, eyes of the avoral, faerie fire, omen of peril x2, lesser vigor, silvered claws, winged watcher, identify*
2 - barkskin, briar web, master air, resist energy x2, soften earth and stone x2, warp wood, augury*
3 - affliction, greater magic fang x2, nature's favor x2, poison, quench, spike growth, divination*
4 - chain of eyes, flamestrike, freedom of movement, greater luminous armor, last breath, rusting grasp, scrying*
5 - Animal Growth x2, Baleful Polymorph, Death Ward, wall of Thorns, stilled freedom of movement, commune*
6 - Cometfall, Find the Path, Greater Dispel Magic x2, Miasma, stilled silent freedom of movement, legend lore*
7 - Slime Wave, Sunbeam, True Seeing, greater scrying*
8 - Leonal's Roar, Sunburst, Word of Recall, discern location*
9 - Shapechange x2, foresight*

*Domain spell. [/sblock]

In other affairs . . . Yikes, I was wondering why the thread grew so fast. If anyone wants my perspective on powergaming in general, I've sblocked it so that the thread can stay on topic. I think some of you might find it instructive, but then, some of you might find it offensive, so read it at your own discretion.

[sblock=Powergaming]
Personally, I think anything less than AC 100* is within acceptable limits. I understand Jemal's build philosophy: if you're playing a level 20 character who is supposed to kick butt and save the world, do all you can to make it capable of really kicking butt.

When Jemal points out that any of a half-dozen builds people can easily find on a search engine or construct off the top of their head can wipe him out in one round, he's not kidding. Off the top of my head, how about a DSP/divine metamagic widened blasphemy build? You can get a caster level in the 40s and he'll die with no save as long as you can get to within 80' of him. SR will likely not even be worth mentioning. With a properly built character, you can even pull this trick off more than once per day.

Of course, I've been accused of not having a normal perspective on power levels in builds. But the point is that there is much worse out there. There is a reason I didn't build a cleric.


*20 x 5 = 100, so 100 at this level. I made a thread a while back about how 5*character level is generally what constitutes a good AC.[/sblock]

 

[Shayuri]

Odd. I thought it was 780,000...DMG, where art thou...

 

[Jemal]

Darimaus, having DMed 14-person parties before, let me just say that I appreciate how time-consuming build checking is. I've tried to explicitly state where all my bonuses are coming from. The only questions I have are:

- Do I need to be aware of any changes to druid wild shape? Absent instructions to the contrary, I expect that it will work as it has since the start of 3.5. I'd just like to be sure so I don't find out mid-combat that my build doesn't work.
- Do you rule that a ninja's ki power: invisible lasts for one full round when used? (Every DM I have ever had has ruled this way due to the wording, but I just want to be clear.)
- Shapechange causes a char to lose his own (Su) and gain the (Su) of his new form. Do you rule that that includes or excludes spell-like abilities? What about psi-like abilities and psionics?

Well I'm not the DM, but One thing I'd point out is that when Wild Shape'd, all of your equipment melds and becomes nonfunctional(Though I think there's an Enchantment or a clasp that lets them stay on you). As far as I know, Shapechange does not grant (or loose) Spell-like abilities, b/c they're not Supernatural or Extraordinary, they're a third classification.

760,000gp is the official recommended wealth level. I checked that number before putting it on my sheet the other day. Does anyone have the XP we are starting with? I know it's halfway to 21, but has anyone done the math? It's the end of the week and I don't feel like looking things up anymore :\

760,000 is indeed the correct amount (DMG page 135), and the XP would be at 200,000. (190K is lvl 20, 210K is lvl 21)

[sblock=Powergaming]
Personally, I think anything less than AC 100* is within acceptable limits. I understand Jemal's build philosophy: if you're playing a level 20 character who is supposed to kick butt and save the world, do all you can to make it capable of really kicking butt.

When Jemal points out that any of a half-dozen builds people can easily find on a search engine or construct off the top of their head can wipe him out in one round, he's not kidding. Off the top of my head, how about a DSP/divine metamagic widened blasphemy build? You can get a caster level in the 40s and he'll die with no save as long as you can get to within 80' of him. SR will likely not even be worth mentioning. With a properly built character, you can even pull this trick off more than once per day.

Of course, I've been accused of not having a normal perspective on power levels in builds. But the point is that there is much worse out there. There is a reason I didn't build a cleric.
*20 x 5 = 100, so 100 at this level. I made a thread a while back about how 5*character level is generally what constitutes a good AC.[/sblock]

[sblock=moritheil] While I wouldn't go so far as to say 5*lvl (most things in D&D tend to be Exponential rather than a straight times X number), I see where you're coming from...
I'd also like to hazard a guess that you've at least taken a peek at the Wizards Optimization Boards.[/sblock]

 

[Voidrazor]

Here's an updated version of my character. She's close to done except for her cohort. A couple of questions:
Under the description of Dorjes it says that they can be bought with a ML above the minimum. Is this OK in your campaign?
The 5th level ability Shadow Pounce of the Crinti Shadow Stalker (Shining South p.24) states that whenever the character uses a teleport subschool ability they get to make a full attack. By RAW this would allow multiple full round attacks when paired with certain powers. Do you have a house nerf on this? It would allow her to do insane amount of damage although she'd run out of PP fairly quickly.

[sblock=Updated sheet]Lowryllyth, "The Death-Blossom"

Female Lawful Evil Elan Totemist 2 / Erudite 6 / Crinti Shadow Marauder 5 / Slayer 7

Strength     20  (+5)   13 base +6 Enchantment +1 Level
Dexterity    17  (+3)  11 base +6 Enchantment
Constitution 22  (+6)  16 base +6 Enchantment
Intelligence 32  (+11) 17 base +6 Enchantment +5 Inherent +4 levels
Wisdom       20  (+5)  14 base +6 Enchantment
Charisma     19  (+4)   15 base -2 Racial +6 Enchantment

Size: Medium
Height: 5' 8"
Weight: 102 lb
Skin: Black
Eyes: Blue
Hair: White
Age: 450 years

HP: [url=http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=973751]192[/url]
AC: 33 (10 base +3 Dex +8 Armor +5 Deflection +6 Monk +1 Insight) 25 Touch 30 Flat-footed
Initiative: +5
BAB: +16
PP: 192 
XP: 

Fort 25 (8 base +6 Con +5 resistance +1 Ioun Stone +1 Luckstone +4 Racial*)
Ref 25 (11 base +3 Dex +5 resistance +1 Ioun Stone +1 Luckstone +4 Racial*)
Will 27 (11 base +5 Wis +5 resistance +1 Ioun Stone +1 Luckstone +4 Racial*)
* Racial bonus costs 1pp, always spent

Feats
1st Track
3rd Mounted Combat, Overchannel (Bonus)
6th Stealthy
8th Midnight Augmentation (Bonus)
9th Practiced Manifester
12th Elan Resilience
15th Leadership
18th Metamorphic Transfer 

Skill Points 183
Skill Name	         Ability   Total	Mod	Ranks	Misc.
Bluff                     Cha      19 =        +4       +15
Concentration	          Con	   29 = 	+6	+23	
Gather Information	  Cha	    7 = 	+4	+3	+2 [know local] 
Handle Animal             Cha        8 =        +4        +4
Hide                      Dex       19 =        +3        +16  (8 cc)
Knowledge (arcana)	  Int	   12 = 	+11	+1	
Knowledge (architecture)  Int	   12 = 	+11	+1	
Knowledge (dungeoneering) Int	   15 = 	+11	+4	
Knowledge (geography)	  Int	   12 = 	+11     +1	
Knowledge (history)	  Int	   12 = 	+11	+1	
Knowledge (local)	  Int	   12 = 	+11	+1	
Knowledge (nature)	  Int	   16 = 	+11	+5	
Knowledge (nobility)	  Int	   12 = 	+11	+1	
Knowledge (psionics)	  Int	   12 = 	+11	+1
Knowledge (religion)	  Int	   12 = 	+11	+1	
Listen	                  Wis	   28 = 	+5	+23	
Move Silently             Dex     19 =       +3       +16 (8 cc)
Ride                      Dex     11 =       +3       +8
Spot	                  Wis	   28 = 	+5	+23	
Psicraft	          Int	   26 = 	+11	+15
Skill Tricks: Clarity of Vision, Collector of Stories


Repertoire
1st Offensive Prescience, Call to Mind, Force Screen, Defensive Precognition, Offensive Precognition, Psionic Grease, Synchronicity (Comp Psi p.103), Claws of the Beast*, Astral Construct*, Metaphysical Claw*, Expansion*, Adrenalin Boost* (Comp Psi p.78)
2nd Hustle*, Energy Stun, Forced Sense Link, Psionic Tongues, Psychoportive Shelter (Comp Psi p.97), 
3rd Dispel Psionics, Energy Burst, Telekinetic Thrust, Telekinetic Force, Greater Concealing Amorpha*, Claws of the Vampire*, Dimension Slide*
4th Correspond, Psionic Dimension Door, Psychic Reformation, Metamorphosis*, Psionic Open Chakra (Incarnum p.107), Schism*, Tower of Iron Will*, Psionic Dominate*
5th Anticipitory Strike (Comp Psi p.78), Power Resistance, Psionic Plane Shift, Psionic True Seeing, Second Chance*, Mind Probe*
6th Inconstant Location (Comp Psi p.91), Mind Over Energy (Comp Psi p.93), Psionic Contingency, Temporal Acceleration

Equipment 
Belt of Magnificence 200k
Dorje of Claws of the Vampire 9th ML 20,250
Dorje of Expansion 6th ML 4,500
Dorje of Inconstant Location 49,500
Hat of Disguise 1,800
+5 Tome of Clear Though 137,500
Boots of Speed 12k
Cloak of Resistance +5 25k
Bracers of Armor +8 64k
Monk's Vest 19,500 (Monks belt)
Ring of Deflection +5 50k
Ring of Invisibility 20k
Rod of Absorption 50k
Cautious Warrior Psicrown 32,063
Luckstone 20k
Pale Green Ioun Stone 30k

Used Power Stones 5,750

Remaining funds 18,137

[/sblock]

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

Just subscribing to the thread to keep an eye on it...

Regards,
BS
PbP Mod

 

[moritheil]

Well I'm not the DM, but One thing I'd point out is that when Wild Shape'd, all of your equipment melds and becomes nonfunctional(Though I think there's an Enchantment or a clasp that lets them stay on you).

All your gear that can't be worn on your new form. Awareness of this issue is why I took a PrC that allows one to benefit from some gear while wildshaped. Thanks for pointing that out, though!

EDIT: Hmm, weird. Looks like it really is all gear now.

Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional.

Hmm, good call. Looks like my +wis gear won't be as useful as I thought. :\ Though magic items do resize . . . I guess I could still wear a collar.

As far as I know, Shapechange does not grant (or loose) Spell-like abilities, b/c they're not Supernatural or Extraordinary, they're a third classification.

Ah, yes. Thanks.

760,000 is indeed the correct amount (DMG page 135), and the XP would be at 200,000. (190K is lvl 20, 210K is lvl 21)

And thanks.

[sblock=quote] While I wouldn't go so far as to say 5*lvl (most things in D&D tend to be Exponential rather than a straight times X number), I see where you're coming from...
I'd also like to hazard a guess that you've at least taken a peek at the Wizards Optimization Boards.[/sblock]

[sblock]Well, I also mentioned in that thread that it was only valid at level 6 or so and up. I don't really keep up with the Wizards CO boards, but I have gamed with some very competitive people, and I know they do. I basically learned 3.5 in such an environment.[/sblock]

 

[Shayuri]

Hmm! Almost done. I really like this build.

Dari, are you allowing Skill Tricks from Complete Scoundrel?

 

[moritheil]

Hmm! Almost done. I really like this build.

Dari, are you allowing Skill Tricks from Complete Scoundrel?

I hope he is! I've got two.

AFAIK he's only vetoed UA; all other hardcover WOTC material is legal.