But D&D doesn't concern itself with the strategic level. What's the point of cannon if we can't (mechanically) talk about the space in which it was actually valuable?
D&D 5E No One Plays High Level?
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Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
The versions of D&D I prefer allow for and support the strategic level. I never mean WotC 5e unless I say so. I mean all the D&Ds.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
Sure. The fighter can ask the archmage to stand still for 30 seconds pretty please so that he can have his crew reposition the cannon to fire. Heaven forbid the archmage move to the left or right while they are trying, because then they'd never get to shoot him.
Sorry, even if they put in cannon, the evil fighter would never be as scary for that reason. The fighter is scarier and can do more damage simply by swinging 4 times and then action surging for 4 more.
Cannons take only 3 actions to shoot. One to load, aim, and fire.
But the point is evil arch fighter could train minions to fire cannons and firing one himself. pummeling the king's castle with cannonballs and the high level heroes if they try to stop himself.
No version of D&D* had substantive strategic scale mechanics. Anything that supported that was built by the players or imported from a different game, and 5E works just as well for that.
*except, again, the Companion set from BECMI and that was pretty light.
the Jester
Legend
Yes. It's one feature of many that make up part of our old skool playstyle, including "Everyone Starts at 1st Level", each player eventually having a troupe of pcs that can rotate in and out, and mixed level play. If you want anything like this to work, you have to use xp, because the same pcs might not be involved the entire adventure.
EDIT: Note that not all old skool play is anything like this. It's simply one type of old skool. Not saying anyone else's is wrong or bad.
the Jester
Legend
As a high level player and DM, hard disagree.
Your premise is that your preferred playstyle is the best playstyle. It may be for you, but is not for everyone.
the Jester
Legend
So starting at high level does make it harder to run high level pcs. But the premise that nobody wants to play a long campaign is, from my experience, completely wrong. That might not be the most common playstyle, but it is absolutely out there. Such games exist. I play in and run them.
I agree that the barrier to entry for high level play is met easiest by starting at low levels and working your way up. And I agree that, in any edition, starting up a 20th level pc from scratch- well, you're not going to play them very well until you get a feel for them over the course of several games. And some kind of system to make an efficient high level pc that was simple enough to pick up and play would be nice- but it shouldn't be the only high level option, or even the default. If high level play is rare, the complexity of it is not the reason; it's the paucity of high level material and support. And the quality of some of the support has been lacking; the 4e epic adventures were pretty terrible, for instance.
I think a section giving practical advice to both dms and players for high level play would be great. The fact is, high level play can be, and really should be, different than low level play on a lot of levels, potential complexity being one of them.
People keep saying this is my preference.
This is a thread about "No one playing high level".
WOTC says "Few People play high level"
If 5e's High level is what most people prefer to see, it is 100% not what they prefer to play.
The "it's fine" line doesn't work as a playable product.
You know, if there were, say, 3 tiers of 10 levels each, and in each tier those levels were labeled 1 through 10, starting at zero XP, with the tier representing the overall power level of the game,I bet you would see more people play "high level" characters. I don't think it is the idea of having powerful characters that puts people off, I think it is at least partially about having to get to or start out at 15th level or whatever.
So tier was is the kind of grounded D&D a lot of folks like. Conan and Lord of the Rings. By 10th level in that tier, you are a legend but still Mortal. Tier 2 is the kind of power fantasy we usually associate with D&D these days with a hint of the mythic, like Beowulf. Starting characters here are destined for greatness, and by 10th level they are leading armies against undead hordes emerging from planar gates. Tier 3 is the truly mythic and superheroes. Starting characters discover they have divine blood or mutant powers or whatever, and by the time they reach their 10th level they are wrestling gods and demons, fighting city sized dragons, etc.
You could build a progression system that allows a character to move through all 3 tiers, but it wouldn't be the default.
So tier was is the kind of grounded D&D a lot of folks like. Conan and Lord of the Rings. By 10th level in that tier, you are a legend but still Mortal. Tier 2 is the kind of power fantasy we usually associate with D&D these days with a hint of the mythic, like Beowulf. Starting characters here are destined for greatness, and by 10th level they are leading armies against undead hordes emerging from planar gates. Tier 3 is the truly mythic and superheroes. Starting characters discover they have divine blood or mutant powers or whatever, and by the time they reach their 10th level they are wrestling gods and demons, fighting city sized dragons, etc.
You could build a progression system that allows a character to move through all 3 tiers, but it wouldn't be the default.
