D&D 5E No One Plays High Level?

[Scott Christian]

this sums it up. If the DM and table want it or aren't willing to suffer the imperfect decisions or the hour long turn then it's going to continue.

It is baked in because, spells more abilities and all that but...you don't have to let the party analyze the entire book of spells each round, which is the biggest cause of long rounds I see. B

But some are comfortable with it and the game plays that way if you are willing to do it. Just like most of the "GAME BREAKING" things people bring up on these forums. They are only game breaking for a few. Most tables adapt, or not and move one.

It is much more than spells. It is hit point bloat. It is abilities. It is the DM, trying to create a threatening encounter, adding in other variables: outside combat objectives, more complex environments, and more opponents. It is opponent's abilities. It is opponent's spells. It is the PC's ability to alter the combat scenario drastically. It is more reactions. It is the player's ability to process the equation with twenty variable instead of two.

I explained how to play it.

I run a high fantasy urban RPG with my family and our turns are FAST.

I have stated this a million times, and until I am proven incorrect, I will hold to my claim. Show me an interesting or threatening encounter to four 15th level PCs, and I will show you combat that lasts at least an hour.

I've never seen it done faster. Not at the dozens of conventions I have played at. Not at the dozens of personal tables I've played at. Not at the dozens of gaming shops that hold league play. And, I have never received a video - ever. Despite me asking for any visual proof. It does not exist, and if it does, the table is not using the rules of D&D.

The reason is because all those things I mentioned above.

A low-level combat might be some goblins attacking on a road. The tall grass and a tipped over wagon are the environmental factors at play. There are a few challenged stealth rolls that add to the combat, and the stronger PCs might have the ability to one shot a goblin. Boom, bang, blast - the combat is over.

A twelfth level combat takes place partially underwater and above. It has an outside objective of draining all the water from the area. There are three swarms of demon fish, four saughagin fighters, a saughagin priest, and their corrupted dragon turtle. There is a force of water elemental souls pushing the water to and fro, like some insane riptide. On top of that, the group has a precious piece of coral they need to get back to the merfolk; however, it is fragile and the saughagin wish to destroy it.

There is zero percent chance that the second combat will run faster than the first. There is also zero percent chance it runs FAST. It can't because the DM needs to weigh the decisions of each combatant. The players will need to assess and reassess each variable.

 

[Minigiant]

million times, and until I am proven incorrect, I will hold to my claim. Show me an interesting or threatening encounter to four 15th level PCs, and I will show you combat that lasts at least an hour.

I've never seen it done faster. Not at the dozens of conventions I have played at. Not at the dozens of personal tables I've played at. Not at the dozens of gaming shops that hold league play. And, I have never received a video - ever. Despite me asking for any visual proof. It does not exist, and if it does, the table is not using the rules of D&D.

The reason is because all those things I mentioned above.

A low-level combat might be some goblins attacking on a road. The tall grass and a tipped over wagon are the environmental factors at play. There are a few challenged stealth rolls that add to the combat, and the stronger PCs might have the ability to one shot a goblin. Boom, bang, blast - the combat is over.

A twelfth level combat takes place partially underwater and above. It has an outside objective of draining all the water from the area. There are three swarms of demon fish, four saughagin fighters, a saughagin priest, and their corrupted dragon turtle. There is a force of water elemental souls pushing the water to and fro, like some insane riptide. On top of that, the group has a precious piece of coral they need to get back to the merfolk; however, it is fragile and the saughagin wish to destroy it.

There is zero percent chance that the second combat will run faster than the first. There is also zero percent chance it runs FAST. It can't because the DM needs to weigh the decisions of each combatant. The players will need to assess and reassess each variable

I explained it earlier in this thread

The response is "That sounds fun but it's not D&D".

That is the problem.

D&D fans demand stuff that slow down the game at high levels.

It's not impossible to have fast high levels.

 

[pogre]

There is zero percent chance that the second combat will run faster than the first. There is also zero percent chance it runs FAST. It can't because the DM needs to weigh the decisions of each combatant. The players will need to assess and reassess each variable.

Agree the second combat will be slower.

Fast, of course, is a relative term.

My players are deciding their actions during other players' turns. They may have to adjust, but they are all veterans and adept at doing that. A few sessions ago most of the PCs were 16th level. There were five players. We played exactly 4 hours. There were seven meaningful encounters and three of those were pretty complicated.

I don't need you to believe me, but the vast majority of our high level combats take less than hour, and most take much less than an hour.

We play every week for exactly four hours. I have players that travel a fair distance to play the game. We start on time and we end on time. Everyone understands to be respectful of everyone's commitment and that we should be playing when we are scheduled to play.

I have run a lot of Adventure League. Those games are slower. There are players who slow the game down.

There is an expectation at my home game to push the pace - I cannot impose that on an A.L. table. Many times I don't know the folks who sign up for my game. That's going to change the table's dynamic. Although, I will say, many A.L. tables have commented on how much material we get through. You know the optional encounters in A.L. Adventures? I cannot remember ever not using one of those.

That's not everyone's style of game. Perhaps most people would hate it. However, it works for us.

 

[nevin]

It is much more than spells. It is hit point bloat. It is abilities. It is the DM, trying to create a threatening encounter, adding in other variables: outside combat objectives, more complex environments, and more opponents. It is opponent's abilities. It is opponent's spells. It is the PC's ability to alter the combat scenario drastically. It is more reactions. It is the player's ability to process the equation with twenty variable instead of two.

I have stated this a million times, and until I am proven incorrect, I will hold to my claim. Show me an interesting or threatening encounter to four 15th level PCs, and I will show you combat that lasts at least an hour.

I've never seen it done faster. Not at the dozens of conventions I have played at. Not at the dozens of personal tables I've played at. Not at the dozens of gaming shops that hold league play. And, I have never received a video - ever. Despite me asking for any visual proof. It does not exist, and if it does, the table is not using the rules of D&D.

The reason is because all those things I mentioned above.

A low-level combat might be some goblins attacking on a road. The tall grass and a tipped over wagon are the environmental factors at play. There are a few challenged stealth rolls that add to the combat, and the stronger PCs might have the ability to one shot a goblin. Boom, bang, blast - the combat is over.

A twelfth level combat takes place partially underwater and above. It has an outside objective of draining all the water from the area. There are three swarms of demon fish, four saughagin fighters, a saughagin priest, and their corrupted dragon turtle. There is a force of water elemental souls pushing the water to and fro, like some insane riptide. On top of that, the group has a precious piece of coral they need to get back to the merfolk; however, it is fragile and the saughagin wish to destroy it.

There is zero percent chance that the second combat will run faster than the first. There is also zero percent chance it runs FAST. It can't because the DM needs to weigh the decisions of each combatant. The players will need to assess and reassess each variable.

well an hour would be mana from heaven for most High level tables I've seen. I'm perfectly ok with an hour long combat for 15th level. It's the 8 hour one's i've seen that made me cry....

 

[nevin]

Agree the second combat will be slower.

Fast, of course, is a relative term.

My players are deciding their actions during other players' turns. They may have to adjust, but they are all veterans and adept at doing that. A few sessions ago most of the PCs were 16th level. There were five players. We played exactly 4 hours. There were seven meaningful encounters and three of those were pretty complicated.

I don't need you to believe me, but the vast majority of our high level combats take less than hour, and most take much less than an hour.

We play every week for exactly four hours. I have players that travel a fair distance to play the game. We start on time and we end on time. Everyone understands to be respectful of everyone's commitment and that we should be playing when we are scheduled to play.

I have run a lot of Adventure League. Those games are slower. There are players who slow the game down.

There is an expectation at my home game to push the pace - I cannot impose that on an A.L. table. Many times I don't know the folks who sign up for my game. That's going to change the table's dynamic. Although, I will say, many A.L. tables have commented on how much material we get through. You know the optional encounters in A.L. Adventures? I cannot remember ever not using one of those.

That's not everyone's style of game. Perhaps most people would hate it. However, it works for us.

i'd say an hour for high level combat is a very good well run combat. Dm is going to eat up at least 1/3rd of that.

 

[Oofta]

well an hour would be mana from heaven for most High level tables I've seen. I'm perfectly ok with an hour long combat for 15th level. It's the 8 hour one's i've seen that made me cry....

While I don't sit and time combats I rarely see hour long combats even at 20th level in 5E. I have no idea what game you're playing that it encroaches on 8 hours unless you're playing 4E. A major set-piece battle might take an hour but those are the exception to the rule.

Heck, my players took longer to get ready for a grand ball/celebration than the final fight in my last campaign.

 

[nevin]

Imagine fights done that way. Never in any games I've run but in several I've played in. It's what happens when people refuse to do anything but what they think is optimal and they have to go through every option to make sure.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Player speed must be a real factor here. Some people can go at it like speed chess while others will agonize over every +2.

If I wanted a game that went fast, I'd go play an FPS/RTS/etc.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Player speed must be a real factor here. Some people can go at it like speed chess while others will agonize over every +2.

If I wanted a game that went fast, I'd go play an FPS/RTS/etc.

Though sometimes, giving such folks a clear, obvious, inarguably good (but maybe not ultra-best) option can fix a lot of that.

I had a 4e DM who created a homebrew minor action: "Take Aim." Pick a target; you get +1 (or maybe +2?) on attack rolls against that target during this turn.

Short and sweet, easy to use, clearly a good choice in a lot of situations, but almost certainly not the absolute best choice for folks that want to optimize. Folks that just want to do well and don't really grok the gritty details can just hit that every round and never worry about their minor action ever again.

Folks that want to squeeze the most out of it? They should take the time to study their character options outside of combat so they don't need to make such extensive evaluations in the heat of battle. If I were in a game with such a player (whether as a fellow player or as DM), I would happily offer to spend a bit of time before/after session (or on some other day) reviewing their options, providing advice on when to do certain kinds of things, strategic combos, etc. If it's hard for them to retain that kind of information long-term, I'd also be happy to help them construct useful notes for themselves (perhaps on a little set of action notecards) so they don't have to flog themselves with a task they struggle with in order to have the kind of fun they're hoping to have.

And if none of that actually helps the problem...I think they need to re-evaluate whether their desired gameplay is actually something they're capable of doing.

 

[Scott Christian]

Agree the second combat will be slower.

Fast, of course, is a relative term.

My players are deciding their actions during other players' turns. They may have to adjust, but they are all veterans and adept at doing that. A few sessions ago most of the PCs were 16th level. There were five players. We played exactly 4 hours. There were seven meaningful encounters and three of those were pretty complicated.

I don't need you to believe me, but the vast majority of our high level combats take less than hour, and most take much less than an hour.

We play every week for exactly four hours. I have players that travel a fair distance to play the game. We start on time and we end on time. Everyone understands to be respectful of everyone's commitment and that we should be playing when we are scheduled to play.

I have run a lot of Adventure League. Those games are slower. There are players who slow the game down.

There is an expectation at my home game to push the pace - I cannot impose that on an A.L. table. Many times I don't know the folks who sign up for my game. That's going to change the table's dynamic. Although, I will say, many A.L. tables have commented on how much material we get through. You know the optional encounters in A.L. Adventures? I cannot remember ever not using one of those.

That's not everyone's style of game. Perhaps most people would hate it. However, it works for us.

That sounds incredible. Do you have any videos of your table playing?

I get that most of you are punctual, which my groups have always been too. And that you are all experienced, as has been almost every long-term group I've played with. And that your players decide prior to their turn, as do most players I know. But, how does it all pan out, say at 16th level, completing a threatening encounter for the PCs, at under an hour? What is your estimate in time for a dangerous 16th level encounter?

Edit: A+ to fast being a relative term.