D&D 5E No One Plays High Level?

Oofta

Legend
The title of that video is annoying clickbait. "99% broken," indeed. I've both run and played in high-level 5E campaigns, and they're fine.

I didn't watch the whole thing because everything he stated was counter to my personal experience. But you don't get eyeballs with happy kittens and puppies. Well, unless it's actually literal happy kittens and puppies of course.
 

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Warpiglet-7

Cry havoc! And let slip the pigs of war!
I have been a player for two campaigns that went from 1 to 20. They worked fine. I swear, most of the internet complaints are from people that have no idea what they are talking about or just like to hear themselves talk.
I don’t comment on high level 5e play since my group starts a lot of new campaigns. One did just hit 11th level.

My pet peeve is the constant griping about games by people that don’t play them. Much of the critique of high level 5e play seems to be from folks that have not played it…

🤷‍♂️
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
The title of that video is annoying clickbait. "99% broken," indeed. I've both run and played in high-level 5E campaigns, and they're fine.
I didn't watch the whole thing because everything he stated was counter to my personal experience. But you don't get eyeballs with happy kittens and puppies. Well, unless it's actually literal happy kittens and puppies of course.
I have been a player for two campaigns that went from 1 to 20. They worked fine. I swear, most of the internet complaints are from people that have no idea what they are talking about or just like to hear themselves talk.

That's kind of the point.

If you play from level 1 all the way to level 20 and never significantly update your characters along the way, you won't run into many of these problems.

If you start at a higher level or update your character's features as you level , you will likely run into many of these problems.

This is why some people see the problems and some don't. It's 100% not clickbait.

The question is: Should high level D&D be designed to only work if you play from level 1 even though 90% of campaigns end after 10 or so level?
 

Oofta

Legend
That's kind of the point.

If you play from level 1 all the way to level 20 and never significantly update your characters along the way, you won't run into many of these problems.

If you start at a higher level or update your character's features as you level , you will likely run into many of these problems.

This is why some people see the problems and some don't. It's 100% not clickbait.

The question is: Should high level D&D be designed to only work if you play from level 1 even though 90% of campaigns end after 10 or so level?
I have no doubt that I could start a high level campaign with people that are familiar with the game and have no problems.

If you've never played or are new to the game, I think you should start from level 1.

I don't see any contradiction or conflict with those two statements. Ive had people bring in brand new high level characters for one read or another and it wasn't an issue. I also think the 2024 edition of the DMG should discuss and have general guidelines for starting at higher levels.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I have no doubt that I could start a high level campaign with people that are familiar with the game and have no problems.

If you've never played or are new to the game, I think you should start from level 1.

I don't see any contradiction or conflict with those two statements. Ive had people bring in brand new high level characters for one read or another and it wasn't an issue. I also think the 2024 edition of the DMG should discuss and have general guidelines for starting at higher levels.
I highly doubt you would have no problems. I am confident that you would.

Familiarity with the game AND Lack of Familiarity with this game are the source of those problem.

What stops those problems is familiarity with the campaigns specific PCs, NPC, Players, and DMs?
When you start at high levels, you are playing with new PCs and NPCs.

PCs and NPCs that no one are familiar with.
PCs and NPCs that have magnitudes more complexity.

4 level 15 PCs that the players and DM have dealt with from level 1 is different from 4 level 15 PCs you're starting Session 1 with.

My friend's level 10 wizard still has burning hands prepared. A spell he never casts anymore.
I don't remind him because he's slow as it is and if he swapped in Silvery Barbs... ugh.
 

ECMO3

Hero
I highly doubt you would have no problems. I am confident that you would.

Familiarity with the game AND Lack of Familiarity with this game are the source of those problem.

What stops those problems is familiarity with the campaigns specific PCs, NPC, Players, and DMs?
When you start at high levels, you are playing with new PCs and NPCs.

PCs and NPCs that no one are familiar with.
PCs and NPCs that have magnitudes more complexity.

4 level 15 PCs that the players and DM have dealt with from level 1 is different from 4 level 15 PCs you're starting Session 1 with.

My friend's level 10 wizard still has burning hands prepared. A spell he never casts anymore.
I don't remind him because he's slow as it is and if he swapped in Silvery Barbs... ugh.

So I am a little late to this discussion, and maybe I have missed something and am speaking out of context. But I have played 2 campaigns to level 20 and a level 20 1-shot in addition to many games to level 15 and I have not generally had what I would call "problems" in those games.

It depends though on what you define as a "problem" though. When I roll my d20 off the table on to the floor and it rolls under the refrigerator is that a "problem"? The issues I have had happen as a result of high level are probably about as significant as that.

I will say I don't enjoy very high level play as much. I really like up to about level 14, after that the enjoyment goes down for me and in both of the 20th level campaigns I played I think we all wanted to finish and see the ending, but we were all also ready to move on to a new lower level campaign I think.
 


Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
So I am a little late to this discussion, and maybe I have missed something and am speaking out of context. But I have played 2 campaigns to level 20 and a level 20 1-shot in addition to many games to level 15 and I have not generally had what I would call "problems" in those games.

It depends though on what you define as a "problem" though. When I roll my d20 off the table on to the floor and it rolls under the refrigerator is that a "problem"? The issues I have had happen as a result of high level are probably about as significant as that.

I will say I don't enjoy very high level play as much. I really like up to about level 14, after that the enjoyment goes down for me and in both of the 20th level campaigns I played I think we all wanted to finish and see the ending, but we were all also ready to move on to a new lower level campaign I think.
The "problems" are the ones suggested in the video.

Wanting to play new characters is mentioned as one of the problems. Which is more or less the only high level problem which is nearly exclusive to playing from level 1.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
1. One of my games started at level 12. It's fine.
2. Why would we not be leveling our characters' features as we level??
Not leveling of characters.

Adjusting of characters' abilities as they level.

AKA a swing swapping out Burning Hands because it no deals less damage than a Cantrips for Silvery Barbarian and Shield and then every single turn is "Do I can SB?" or "Do I cast Shield?" or some other 1st level spell that has it's rules reread during play.

The slowness of turns, swinginess of power, wrecking campaigns, and wane of death usually doue to this.

I've been playing D&D since 2000 and the biggest turning point of ugh in D&D is when spellcasters realize their low level spells aren't cutting it for damage or range and swap them for utility spells, support spells, control spells, and OOC spells.

When the wizard, cleric, druid, or whatever starts casting 1st and 2nd level spells you don't see often or they are used to, it's big UH OH time. Worst if from self crafted downtime items.

And when experienced, big buyer, players start at high level, they tend to start at that point.
 

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