No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[helium3]

All I know is that outsiders and dragons, particularly those with high CR's, were a lot more fearsome before the various high damage output, no spell resistance spells and powers appeared.

It got to the point where I stopped having my high level psion manifest crystal shard because it was too easy to kill just about anything with it, particularly when maximized.

 

[charlesatan]

No, a ranged touch attack isn't a guarantedd ht, and a reflex ST means normally that you're going to deal some damage. But overall, starting at medium levels a ranged touch attack is vastly better than saving throws.p

Yes, I get the benefits of a ranged touch attack (let's throw in the possibility of double damage of crit). Out of curiosity, so if the Orb spells weren't touch attacks but rather resolved like bursts (save for half, still single target), in your opinion would they still be as broken?

However, the crux of the matter isn't even this, or the fact that orbs aren't fireballs. The point is that the orbs, which are conjurations, are better than similar evocation spells. By similar I mean ranged touch, energy damage dealing spells. And they are better because they deal similar or more damage, and allow less defenses. I doesn't mater that there are other spells in the evocation school that deal area damage: orbs are good enough (and then some) to be part of the evocation school. As an analogy, suppose Necromancy had a 1st level spell mostly identical to charm person, only that it doesn't allow spell resistance. That the enchantment school still has Mass Suggestion doesn't change the fact that the new necromancy spell is better than Charm person.

For the record, my arguments were to Karin'sDad and how he phrased his arguments. Your quote, I think, is a better, more clearer way to present your arguments.

1) Honestly, I haven't seen much ranged touch Evocation spells. The only usual choices I end up with is Polar Ray or Scorching Ray. Yes, I think this is a problem that needs to be addressed.

2) Of course IMO, I think there's room for some overlap between Conjuration and Evocation. But that's just my opinion. I'll still stick to my argument that when it comes to crowd control, Evocation can't be beat. If you're lobbying for single targets as well, until the "defense" factor (saves, AC, SR, etc.) they're about equal. If we're factoring in SR/spell immunity, obviously I can't prove that the Orb is inferior to other comparable spells. But in 3.5, I think that's what the designers were lobbying for in terms of Conjuration spells, a sub school that has a limited (limited in the sense that the summoning subschool still isn't a solution to SR) way of overcoming SR.

 

[Delta]

It is a fairly decent secondary check against low-level characters who munch out their saving throw DCs, but admittedly it could have been more elegant. However, a huge step up from the old flat random % Spell Resistance? Definitely!

The current SR mechanic is almost exactly equivalent to 1E Magic Resistance. Both chances shift 5% per level of the caster. 1E MM, p. 5-6:

MAGIC RESISTANCE indicates the percentage chance of any spell absolutely failing in the monster’s presence. It is based on the spell being cast by a magic-user of 11th level, and it must be adjusted upwards by 5% for each level below 11th or downwards for each level above 11th of the magic-user casting the spell...

 

[charlesatan]

So in addition to the Orbs averaging more single target energy damage than most single target energy damaging Evocation spells as illustrated, they also have a selection advantage. The caster incorrectly chooses a single target energy damage spell less often with the Orbs. If the caster can clearly see the target (shy of some more unusual magic), he can typically damage the target.

My qualm with quoting selection advantage is that it's just that: selection advantage. It's not like it's the Psion kineticist subschool where you get to choose which element it is at casting. The only real class to benefit from it is the Warmage (who gets all of it and casts spells spontaneously). There's some advantage to the Wizard if he knows what he's facing (and took the time to copy all four Orb elemental spells... I consider Orb of Force a different beast altogether). If I were a Sorcerer, I'd still need to pick the right element when I pick my 4th-level spells.

And of course as someone else pointed out, with a ranged touch attack, that is mostly under the control of the caster. He can bump up his to hit and damage with spells and feats and PrC special abilities in order to become a ranged touch attack specialist. It is mostly under his control. Most opponents are not anti-ranged touch attack specialist such that they can defend against this and most opponents do not have extremely high touch ACs. For most opponents, even ones with high hit points, Orb spells are deadly.

Barring spell immunity, it's also possible to buid your character to overcome spell resistance. Granted boosting your attack bonus is a lot easier than boosting your caster level against SR, but it's not impossible either.

 

[charlesatan]

Assuming minimum caster level of 11, Acid Fog deals 22d6 damage in an area, it's just spread out over time.

Uh, even I can't defend the merits of Acid Fog based on damage output alone. There's a big difference between 22d6 now and 22d6 over time. (If I'm going to cast Acid Fog, it's for its other benefits. The damage is nice but it's honestly not comparable to everything else either Conjuration or Evocation can throw.)

 

[charlesatan]

Enchantment? Necromancy? At high levels, a good percentage of enemies are virtually immune to both (at least the good single-target stuff) either naturally or due to Death Wards and Mind Blanks. And they still allow SR.

Mind Blank, yes. Death Ward, not really (barring undead). At epic levels there's as long list of immunities (mind-affecting, necromancy, disintegration, polymorphing, etc.) including most energy types except sonic and high resistances to fire at the very least.

 

[Henry]

BRIEF TIME-OUT:

I'm noticing from a few of the posters that the insults are ratcheting up just a tad in the midst of heated debate. Let's keep in mind to keep it back at the "civil" level, if we could.

Thanks, all.

 

[Alratan]

Are you saying that fire is a creature or object?

It's worth noting that in the D&D cosmology, Fire is most certainly an object, one of the four basic constituents of all matter - fire as an element. Thus, fire can exist in of itself, with no fuel, a piece of elemental fire dragged onto the material plane.

Really? I can think of at least 8 conjuration spells that create energy (fire, electrical, force, and sonic). It seems rather apparent that WotC feels that Conjuration spells can create energy.

Similar arguments can be made that in an alchemical paradigm, electricity may also be an object, and quite possibly force as well. Sonic is more difficult, but for that I can argue that an orb of force is simply a conjured pulse of very dense vibrating air.

 

[Someone]

Yes, I get the benefits of a ranged touch attack (let's throw in the possibility of double damage of crit). Out of curiosity, so if the Orb spells weren't touch attacks but rather resolved like bursts (save for half, still single target), in your opinion would they still be as broken?

Ah, but I wasn't arguing if they were broken or not. My position in the thread is that they are incorrectly placed: they should be evocations, not conjurations. In any case, being evocations with a touch attack, no save and with SR would make them right fine in my book.

For the record, my arguments were to Karin'sDad and how he phrased his arguments. Your quote, I think, is a better, more clearer way to present your arguments.

1) Honestly, I haven't seen much ranged touch Evocation spells. The only usual choices I end up with is Polar Ray or Scorching Ray. Yes, I think this is a problem that needs to be addressed.

We agree on this.

2) Of course IMO, I think there's room for some overlap between Conjuration and Evocation. But that's just my opinion.

I see no problem with some overlap; most people too, since nobody is complaining, say, about Melf's acid arrow Vs Scorching ray.

I'll still stick to my argument that when it comes to crowd control, Evocation can't be beat.

Very true, but it'll be truer that in terms of crowd blasting, Evocation can't be beat still. Orbs IMO are a wrong step in terms of design philosophy, that if repeated would lead to conjured balls of fire and conjured chaing lighnings, just without SR. Evocation isn't a total joke because there are no many spells like the orbs: that doesn't make the orbs good, which is the point being argued.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Mind Blank, yes. Death Ward, not really (barring undead). At epic levels there's as long list of immunities (mind-affecting, necromancy, disintegration, polymorphing, etc.) including most energy types except sonic and high resistances to fire at the very least.

Deathe Ward makes you immune to death effects and negative energy, which includes Enervation.