No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[James McMurray]

Have you actually played this game at high level? I've seen AMF used in a lot of ways to prevent enemy attacks from affecting PCs.

Did you read my post? I specifically said that if you want to use it offensively you have to be close, then you respond by saying it can be used defensively from far away. Can you at least do me the favor of finishing a paragraph before you dive towards your rant button?

If you have a moment to follow my sig and read my Story Hour threads you'll know that when I run games it's almost exclusively at higher levels. So yes, I have a lot of experience at high level games.

All of your sarcasm aside (it's really not necessary and makes your position look less tenable, not more), you really do not know what you are talking about with regard to AMF.

Says the guy whose response was

Stupid???

Uh, even I can't defend the merits of Acid Fog based on damage output alone. There's a big difference between 22d6 now and 22d6 over time. (If I'm going to cast Acid Fog, it's for its other benefits. The damage is nice but it's honestly not comparable to everything else either Conjuration or Evocation can throw.)

Neither can I, but someone that says Acid Fog only deals 8d6 damage apparently hasn't read the spell.

It's worth noting that in the D&D cosmology, Fire is most certainly an object, one of the four basic constituents of all matter - fire as an element. Thus, fire can exist in of itself, with no fuel, a piece of elemental fire dragged onto the material plane.

In the D&D cosmology, element does not equal object. Fire is an energy type, and is consistently described as such. It is not an object. If it were it would have hardness and hit points, be sunderable, etc.

Similar arguments can be made that in an alchemical paradigm, electricity may also be an object, and quite possibly force as well. Sonic is more difficult, but for that I can argue that an orb of force is simply a conjured pulse of very dense vibrating air.

Possibly, but is there any basis for it in the D&D rules to which this forum is dedicated?

 

[Felix]

My qualm with quoting selection advantage is that it's just that: selection advantage. It's not like it's the Psion kineticist subschool where you get to choose which element it is at casting. The only real class to benefit from it is the Warmage (who gets all of it and casts spells spontaneously). There's some advantage to the Wizard if he knows what he's facing (and took the time to copy all four Orb elemental spells... I consider Orb of Force a different beast altogether). If I were a Sorcerer, I'd still need to pick the right element when I pick my 4th-level spells.

I believe the selection advantage he was talking about was different than the selection of which flavor energy of orb to cast.

You have an Evoker who faces an opponent with Evasion. The Evoker does not know this, and so casts Fireball; the save is made and no damage results. The Evoker now suspects Evasion (though there could be other reasons) and from that point on will be less likely to select Fireball to deal with that subject: the benefit of knowing that the target can completely avoid Reflex save fire spells was purchased with a round's worth of actions.

You have a Conjurer who faces an opponent with a miss chance. It is more easily known that the opponent has a miss chance than it is to know that the opponent has Evasion. So instead of casting one of his Orb spells which may not hit due to the miss chance, he instead casts another spell which will not be affected by miss chance.

The Conjurer selects away from spells which have a counter present (miss chance v. attack roll), while the Evoker must spend a round to learn that he should do so (Ref save spell v. Evasion). This is not to say that either caster immediately or perfectly knows what it is that countered or may counter his spells, but rather that the Conjurer is in a better position to do so.


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Re: Fire needing fuel to burn.

The fire conjured either needs fuel to burn or it does not.

If it does not need fuel to exist, then the 3 inch ball of fire lasts forever.

If it does need fuel to exist, there exists no explanation as to how much fuel the spell provides; if you assume that the damage-dealing text of the spell mandates that the Orb lasts at least long enough to hit, then after that point every round is as equally likely to see the Orb run out of fuel. At which point you open the door to people picking it up and stuffing it down the britches of the Conjurer who thought it would be a good idea to be an Evoker.

Which is a door I am very, very glad to open.

 

[Felix]

In the D&D cosmology, element does not equal object.

I agree. At which point you run into:

Creation: A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates​

So you have your options:

Fire is an object or it is not.

If it is, what are its hardness, HP, etc?

If it is not, what is it doing in the Conjuration (Creation) subschool?

 

[IcyCool]

In my opinion, the Orb spells are imbalanced.

If you removed the "no SR" from them, they would be balanced.

If you then also changed them from Conjuration to Evocation, they would be properly placed (but this is more of a flavor thing, I like the spell school rules to be as close to consistent as possible).

 

[Rystil Arden]

In my opinion, the Orb spells are imbalanced.

If you removed the "no SR" from them, they would be balanced.

If you then also changed them from Conjuration to Evocation, they would be properly placed (but this is more of a flavor thing, I like the spell school rules to be as close to consistent as possible).

I agree--this might be an easier line to pursue the OP's sentiment, so I ask:

People who for whatever reason are arguing that the orb spells are fair with no SR (notwithstanding my math which you guys have all ignored), given the comparison to similar spells of that level, why would they not be more fair if they DID allow SR? All of the flavour arguments for putting them in Evocation aside.

 

[James McMurray]

I agree. At which point you run into:

Creation: A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates​

So you have your options:

Fire is an object or it is not.

If it is, what are its hardness, HP, etc?

If it is not, what is it doing in the Conjuration (Creation) subschool?

I'll choose hidden option c: The PHB's general descriptions do not cover all individual cases and in this instance the designers felt it appropriate to allow Conjuration (Creation) spells to create energy.

 

[DungeonMaester]

I agree--this might be an easier line to pursue the OP's sentiment, so I ask:

People who for whatever reason are arguing that the orb spells are fair with no SR (notwithstanding my math which you guys have all ignored), given the comparison to similar spells of that level, why would they not be more fair if they DID allow SR? All of the flavour arguments for putting them in Evocation aside.

I have no problem with them. 1d8 every two levels is half as powerful as a fireball, and for one target. SR? Never comes up so its never a problem? Can you collect them afterwords? They are instantaneous..You fire, they hit something and go boom. Duh? Can you collect a fireball after you shot one?

---Rusty

 

[Rystil Arden]

I have no problem with them. 1d8 every two levels is half as powerful as a fireball, and for one target. SR? Never comes up so its never a problem? Can you collect them afterwords? They are instantaneous..You fire, they hit something and go boom. Duh? Can you collect a fireball after you shot one?

---Rusty

You might be thinking of the level 1 Orb spells (which can be crazy in their own right at low levels if properly metamagicked)--we're talking about the level 4s

And I say that SR comes up a lot, and when it does come up, the orbs are problem children. If you think SR never comes up, you must be willing to have the orbs be SR: Yes, right? If so, I'd be satisfied with their balance.

 

[Felix]

I'll choose hidden option c: The PHB's general descriptions do not cover all individual cases and in this instance the designers felt it appropriate to allow Conjuration (Creation) spells to create energy.

"They're more what you call... guidelines."

You're a rules pirate.

And frankly, I'd change the wording to:

c: The PHB's general descriptions do not cover all individual cases and in this instance the designers felt it appropriate to weren't paying attention when they allowed Conjuration (Creation) spells to create energy.​

 

[RigaMortus2]

And when conjuring fire you need fuel to sustain it, or like all other non-magical fire it goes out.

Not that I doubt you or anything, but is there an actual quote or ruling you could point to in the PHB or DMG regarding "fire needs fuel to sustain it"???