No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[Rystil Arden]

You insulted the position I take and I asked why in like tone.

I went to check your math the other day, but could not find 'Easy Metamagic', so I can only presume it's either in a book I don't have access to (mostly campaign books and third party), or doesn't exist. I can't argue a point where a crucial bit of information isn't available.

Now you're saying I insulted the position--you're right that I did. I'll agree with you there. I was attacking the position, not the person. In the end, I think that all the people who think Orbs or Wraithstrike or Divine Metamagic+Persistant or 3.0 Haste are balanced are reasonably-smart reasonable people, which is why I always try to explain to them my views on the matter because I think their position is remarkably foolish.

@The feat, I may have named it with the wrong adjective. It lowers the cost of a single metamagic you know by one level. I can check the exact name for you if you like. I'd rather you deal with the first set of numbers though, even though the Orbs win by less, for the reasons I stated many times to James before were why I didn't want to give the two casters different feats (the feat disparity invites the argument that the problem is the feats rather than the Orbs).

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Just chiming in with a 1st person view on the orb spells.

I am playing a Warmage. I have not "tricked him out". I have taken various feats, none of which have anything to do with raising DCs of my spells or overcoming spells resistance. He is a complete character, not a character relying on one schtick to see him through life.

Now that we have reached higher levels (13 to be exact) we are facing somewhere between 50% and 75% of opponents with some manner of spell resistance. In addition almost all opponents at this stage have +10 or more on their saves.

So I have two choices when casting a spell at a bad guy...
1. Cast a standard evocation. Hope I get lucky passing SR. Hope I get lucky and they fail their save. And finally hope I get lucky and they aren't immune or resistant to whatever energy I chose. On the off chance that all of these line up then WAZOO, I did some damage. For the sake of argument its capped at 10d6 which averages out to 35 points.

2. Cast an orb. Make a to-hit roll that I probably won't fail (I have taken ranged attack feats). Do some damage. At 13th level I can do 13d6, which averages out to about 45 points.

The triple layer defence of SR/Save/Resistances have depowered most spell so bad that the orb spells actually make being blasted by the wizard a bad thing.

I think the most direct correlation between an existing spell and the orb spells would be to take an empowered Acid Arrow. It would deal out a max of 21d4 damage with a ranged touch, ignore SR and allow no save. The same caster slinging an orb of acid would do 15d6. The average damage of the arrow is 52 points, the damage of the orb is 52 points. One use of the energy substitution feat and you could get most of the other orbs the same as above.

DS

 

[Notmousse]

Arguing your numbers is silly in that it's heavily biased. Single enemy encounters make a good portion of evokations less useful if only for the reason that the damage dice caps are different for multiple opponent attacks vs single opponent attacks. That isn't the exact phrasing, but, I did double check the table (page 36 of the DMG IIRC) to make sure the Orb spells complied.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Arguing your numbers is silly in that it's heavily biased. Single enemy encounters make a good portion of evokations less useful if only for the reason that the damage dice caps are different for multiple opponent attacks vs single opponent attacks. That isn't the exact phrasing, but, I did double check the table (page 36 of the DMG IIRC) to make sure the Orb spells complied.

I don't have a problem with the damage dice on the Orb, but the SR penetration. I can give the Evoker metamagicked Scorching Rays if you would prefer, though. However, those are more prone to Energy Resistance than usual, which is something to consider.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Just chiming in with a 1st person view on the orb spells.

I am playing a Warmage. I have not "tricked him out". I have taken various feats, none of which have anything to do with raising DCs of my spells or overcoming spells resistance. He is a complete character, not a character relying on one schtick to see him through life.

Now that we have reached higher levels (13 to be exact) we are facing somewhere between 50% and 75% of opponents with some manner of spell resistance. In addition almost all opponents at this stage have +10 or more on their saves.

So I have two choices when casting a spell at a bad guy...
1. Cast a standard evocation. Hope I get lucky passing SR. Hope I get lucky and they fail their save. And finally hope I get lucky and they aren't immune or resistant to whatever energy I chose. On the off chance that all of these line up then WAZOO, I did some damage. For the sake of argument its capped at 10d6 which averages out to 35 points.

2. Cast an orb. Make a to-hit roll that I probably won't fail (I have taken ranged attack feats). Do some damage. At 13th level I can do 13d6, which averages out to about 45 points.

The triple layer defence of SR/Save/Resistances have depowered most spell so bad that the orb spells actually make being blasted by the wizard a bad thing.

I think the most direct correlation between an existing spell and the orb spells would be to take an empowered Acid Arrow. It would deal out a max of 21d4 damage with a ranged touch, ignore SR and allow no save. The same caster slinging an orb of acid would do 15d6. The average damage of the arrow is 52 points, the damage of the orb is 52 points. One use of the energy substitution feat and you could get most of the other orbs the same as above.

DS

So you're saying that the orbs are *much* better, right? As to Empowered Acid Arrow, do remember that this is over time, and Energy Resistance (even just the level 2 spell) will convert that to no damage.

 

[FireLance]

I definitely agree that they're thematically problematic. I'm just not totally sure they're broken in terms of game balance.

I generally agree with the above.

The main problem with the orb spells is that they are very effective against single targets - they have no saving throw (not for the damage, anyway), and they only require a touch attack. Generally speaking, it is more likely that a PC will succeed at his touch attack than his opponent will fail his saving throw. Spell resistance is an additional factor. Although not every opponent will have spell resistance, many will in a high-level game. The only real defences against them are energy resistance and immunity, and these affect the other spells, too.

The other factor contributing to their effectiveness is that combat with single, powerful opponents (usually, the BBEG or his main allies or henchmen) are a staple of many games, and even when the PCs face multiple opponents, the numbers are probably in the low single digits. This makes area-effect spells comparatively less useful in-game.

I am not convinced that the orb spells are broken, but I do believe that many DMs run games that favor them over area-effect spells.

 

[KarinsDad]

What I'm not sure of is why the 'orb spells are overpowered' side (I'm sort of waffling between both camps myself) continually seems to dismiss ranged touch attacks as being autohits.

They're not even close to that! I've played a warlock of significant level who had spent quite a few resources on making his ranged touch attacks better, and I still missed noticeably often. A wizard/sorcerer is almost certainly going to be less accurate with their ranged touch attacks.

I think one has to look at the math, just like always.

It is not unreasonable for a Wizard or Sorcerer to have a starting Dex of 14. Let's go with that. Let's assume that he is willing to devote a few feats to it, but not ability score points. Let's look at what his chances are to hit touch AC 10 and touch AC 15 (the range where an Orb is a proper selection and btw, the average touch AC and the high end touch AC of the vast majority of opponents). Let's assume that he gains a +2 Dex item at level 5, a +4 Dex item at level 10, and a +6 Dex item at level 15 (we'll ignore Cat's Grace or other attack boost spells, although that is a viable option at lower levels instead of a Dex boost item). And let's say that he is human (extra feat at first level).

01 70% 45% Point Blank Shot
02 75% 50%
03 75% 50% Precise Shot
04 80% 55%
05 85% 60%
06 90% 65%
07 90% 65%
08 95% 70%
09 95% 70%
10 95% 80%
11 95% 80%
12 95% 85%
13 95% 85%
14 95% 90%
15 95% 95%
16 95% 95%
17 95% 95%
18 95% 95%
19 95% 95%
20 95% 95%

This is with a single item (or spell) and two feats (the second one in order to fire into combat). No special PrC abilities, no additional magic, etc.

Sure, his chances against Rogues and Monks will be somewhat less, but not against 90+% of opponents (Monsters and non-light armor opponents).

Another factor is that PCs run into larger creatures as they get higher levels, so sometimes, the touch AC of opponents actually decreases at higher levels.


Now, start throwing Bless or Prayer or Inspire Courage or Haste, or a boatload of other ways to improve to hit. Or make him an Elf or a Halfling. Throw in some more feats or PrC special abilities. Granted, a few opponents might have boost spells up that improve their touch AC, but the vast majority typically do not.


The math is really against your position on this. Most opponents have touch AC 14 or less. In the MM, the range of AC is -1 to 29, the average is 10.5, and 93+% of the creatures have touch AC 14 or less.


10.5 Average touch AC for creatures in the MM. It really is virtually auto-hit (i.e. 95% chance) by 10th level for the vast majority of opponents and a real high chance to hit even before then.


Apples and Oranges when compared to Evocation spells with Reflex saves. Plus, the caster can purposely pick feats, spells, items, and special abiliites to boost his effectiveness a lot more ways than ways to improve spell DC for Reflex save spells.


Plus, range touch spells that do damage can sometimes (4.5% to 4.75%) do double damage as opposed to reflex save spells that never do double damage and sometimes do half damage.


Quite frankly, Orb spells would be extremely potent (one may even say borderline broken since two of them can take out most near level opponents) even if they did have SR. Without SR and especially without SR and with metamagic, they are through the roof.

 

[FireLance]

Quite frankly, Orb spells would be extremely potent even if they did have SR. Without SR, they are through the roof.

I am not sure if the ability to ignore SR is as great a benefit as it is made out to be. While I do recognize that opponents with SR are more common at high levels, what proportion of encounters do they actually make up? If half the opponents you encounter have SR, and your opponents' SR stops your spells half the time, the ability to ignore SR makes a difference only 25% of the time - useful, but hardly "through the roof". I suspect the difference is more psychological than real.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I am not sure if the ability to ignore SR is as great a benefit as it is made out to be. While I do recognize that opponents with SR are more common at high levels, what proportion of encounters do they actually make up? If half the opponents you encounter have SR, and your opponents' SR stops your spells half the time, the ability to ignore SR makes a difference only 25% of the time - useful, but hardly "through the roof". I suspect the difference is more psychological than real.

The difference is real and highly important--it gets even worse when you're dealing with an enemy that is much more powerful than the party which the party should flee (or just not attack in the first place!). Without the orbs, the enemy will win (as it should) because the caster can't get through the SR reliably, but with the orbs, the party can probably beat the overwhelming encounter. As I mentioned in one of my posts, Connie the Conjurer can do well over 1/3rd of the health of an enemy 9 CR higher guaranteed with Orbs.

This same principle applies for turning exciting boss battles into cakewalks or taking monsters that were designed to give the non-casters a chance and making them a slaughter for the caster.

The Orbs aren't a balance problem for when SR doesn't appear--they're a balance problem for when SR is important because they make it meaningless. Any argument as to the amount of SR in a campaign ignores that the Orbs are unfair when SR appears. Anyone who says "I admit Orbs are overwhelmingly better against SR, but SR isn't that common and they are balanced otherwise" should answer me this: If SR isn't that common and you don't care about it, why not force the Orbs to allow SR to apply and fix the situations where it comes up?

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Let's assume that he gains a +2 Dex item at level 5, a +4 Dex item at level 10, and a +6 Dex item at level 15

I think thats a lot to assume since most wizards/sorcerers are going to get an item to increase their INT/CHA instead of their DEX.

DS