No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[JiffyPopTart]

So you're saying that the orbs are *much* better, right? As to Empowered Acid Arrow, do remember that this is over time, and Energy Resistance (even just the level 2 spell) will convert that to no damage.

Nope, i'm saying the damage is a wash. The orb has instant damage, but can't disrupt spellcasting or spell-like abilities over time like the arrow can so I consider both those to be washes. The cap with energy resistance certainly is a factor against the arrow, however I find that at higher levels when monster most often have multiple energy resistances nobody is going to open with a salvo of 4th level spells.

I'm not arguing that the orbs AREN'T more powerful than most other 4th level spells. I am arguing that direct-damage spells in general are crap and that the orbs are going a ways to fixing them. Kind of like the change in feat design with the PHBII. Therefore they are not broken, any more than any other spell/feat/item/whatever that 80% of characters would take if given the chance.

DS

 

[Rystil Arden]

Nope, i'm saying the damage is a wash. The orb has instant damage, but can't disrupt spellcasting or spell-like abilities over time like the arrow can so I consider both those to be washes. The cap with energy resistance certainly is a factor against the arrow, however I find that at higher levels when monster most often have multiple energy resistances nobody is going to open with a salvo of 4th level spells.

I'm not arguing that the orbs AREN'T more powerful than most other 4th level spells. I am arguing that direct-damage spells in general are crap and that the orbs are going a ways to fixing them. Kind of like the change in feat design with the PHBII. Therefore they are not broken, any more than any other spell/feat/item/whatever that 80% of characters would take if given the chance.

DS

So you are saying that orbs are much more powerful, you just think that spellcasters need a major boost to damage. Alright, that's fine. Maybe in your game the spellcasters are being trivialised by the Fighters. It is unusual, but I've seen it happen (though usually it involves novice players with the casters).

Myself, I think that spellcasters are already the strongest, and I don't want them to have another major boost to damage that lets them slay enemies easily that were previously challenges due to SR by negating all of the resistance mechanisms in place when balancing that enemy. (saves and SR).

 

[Notmousse]

Not to mention the availability/cost of these items. At 5th level that's about 45% of your expected wealth, at 10th it's around 30%, and at 15th it's about 18%.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Not to mention the availability/cost of these items. At 5th level that's about 45% of your expected wealth, at 10th it's around 30%, and at 15th it's about 18%.

I agree with you Notmousse--it's a bit much to ask for the +2 at level 5 or maybe the +4 at level 10 (though the +6 for 18% of wealth at level 15 is eminently acceptable--Wizards usually are buying these anyway to increase AC, Ref saves, Init, etc). Still, that only throws the numbers off by 5% at a few locations on the chart (+2 Dex item is a no-brainer by level 7, say, and +4 a no-brainer by level 12)

 

[Notmousse]

At 15th it's reasonable to have two, maybe even three +6 items, but the +2 Dex at 5th is outright silly, and the +4 Dex at 10th stretches belief.

 

[Rystil Arden]

At 15th it's reasonable to have two, maybe even three +6 items, but the +2 Dex at 5th is outright silly, and the +4 Dex at 10th stretches belief.

As I said, I agree--some GMs won't even allow players to spend more than 33% of their wealth on any one item if creating a PC at that level. I'd say the only way the character would have a +2 Dex item at 5 is if she has Craft Wondrous Item starting at level 3, lets the other PCs take the magic while she takes the gold, and then uses the gold to make items, effectively doubling much of her wealth. Otherwise, the PC is making a pretty big commitment to Dex over other things. But as I said, that barely changes Karinsdad's chart.

 

[FireLance]

The difference is real and highly important--it gets even worse when you're dealing with an enemy that is much more powerful than the party which the party should flee (or just not attack in the first place!). Without the orbs, the enemy will win (as it should) because the caster can't get through the SR reliably, but with the orbs, the party can probably beat the overwhelming encounter. As I mentioned in one of my posts, Connie the Conjurer can do well over 1/3rd of the health of an enemy 9 CR higher guaranteed with Orbs.

This same principle applies for turning exciting boss battles into cakewalks or taking monsters that were designed to give the non-casters a chance and making them a slaughter for the caster.

The Orbs aren't a balance problem for when SR doesn't appear--they're a balance problem for when SR is important because they make it meaningless. Any argument as to the amount of SR in a campaign ignores that the Orbs are unfair when SR appears. Anyone who says "I admit Orbs are overwhelmingly better against SR, but SR isn't that common and they are balanced otherwise" should answer me this: If SR isn't that common and you don't care about it, why not force the Orbs to allow SR to apply and fix the situations where it comes up?

I think it depends very much on whether you want SR to be a roadblock or a speed bump. If you want SR to be a speed bump, the ability to overcome SR is a minor advantage. If you want SR to be a road block, whether it is "to give the non-casters a chance", or to prevent the PCs from defeating an opponent they are not supposed to defeat, then the ability to overcome SR is a potentially game-breaking benefit (for that specific game, at least).

On the whole, however, I don't think it is wise to rely on a single element (such as SR) to swing an encounter one way or the other. Even if Connie can reduce her CR level+9 opponent's hit points by a third, will she (and her party) be able to survive what the opponent does on his turn?

 

[Rystil Arden]

I think it depends very much on whether you want SR to be a roadblock or a speed bump. If you want SR to be a speed bump, the ability to overcome SR is a minor advantage. If you want SR to be a road block, whether it is "to give the non-casters a chance", or to prevent the PCs from defeating an opponent they are not supposed to defeat, then the ability to overcome SR is a potentially game-breaking benefit (for that specific game, at least).

On the whole, however, I don't think it is wise to rely on a single element (such as SR) to swing an encounter one way or the other. Even if Connie can reduce her CR level+9 opponent's hit points by a third, will she (and her party) be able to survive what the opponent does on his turn?

Can Connie survive a single round? Likely yes if they start at range (which seems reasonable), though the enemy could choose to flee. Then she can do another third of its health. If the rest of her party can do anything at all (another Conjurer is not out of the question, which would do the trick easily, but any combo that can do the final 1/3 between the three of them in two rounds will do), the dragon is dead.

SR isn't the sole factor, though--the dragon has many defenses, and the orbs just happen to ignore them all. I wouldn't call SR always a "roadblock", although sometimes it should be. I'd call it a balancing factor that is an intrinsic part of the game's challenge. It's like the incredible Reflex saves and Evasion (and later Improved Evasion) on Rogues and Monks. It isn't always a roadblock, but it's a balancing factor on those classes against certain attacks.

 

[KarinsDad]

I think thats a lot to assume since most wizards/sorcerers are going to get an item to increase their INT/CHA instead of their DEX.

Not very relevant.

Minimally, a caster who tries to boost his Dex will use Cats Grace.

 

[KarinsDad]

At 15th it's reasonable to have two, maybe even three +6 items, but the +2 Dex at 5th is outright silly, and the +4 Dex at 10th stretches belief.

It's not silly for a caster whose bread and butter spells are Orbs. +1 to AC, Reflex saves, and attacks might be worth 45% of his wealth.

And there are a lot of core ways to get +1 or better bonus to attacks at level 5 and higher without +Dex items. Aid, Bless, Blink, Cats Grace, Good Hope, Haste, Heroes Feast, Heroism, Greater Heroism, Inspire Courage, Prayer, Reduce Person, Weapon Focus (let alone non-core spells, items, feats, and special abilities).


The pro-Orb people are quibbling over 5%.