No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[James McMurray]

Age of Worms is written by a diferent author for each section, and it certainly shows how playstyles can affect the usefulness of the orbs. The first two parts have a lot of one-on-one or low enemy count encounters, making orbs the best bet for damaging folks. Thenext part has fights where orbs are practically worthless because you're fighting over 10 foes. The next one breaks even on large vs. small encounters, and the last has again favors large groups.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Without any magic spells or items whatsoever, I can easily create an arcane caster who specializes in Orb spells who hits an average touch AC creature in the MM (we'll make it AC 11) 95% of the time by 8th level:

Dex 14 Halfling which makes it Dex 16

01 70% Point Blank Shot
02 75%
03 75% Precise Shot
04 80%
05 80%
06 90% Weapon Focus
07 90%
08 95%

So you are basically saying "Look, I can totally trick out a guy using all of my feats to be good at ranged-attacks with a wizard and rarely miss. Thus the ranged-touch attack roll is a non-issue." Well I would hope so! Rerun those number with the same character but NOT picking ranged feats and you get the following.

Level--Chance--Chance vs. Melee Occupied (happens a lot in our games)
01--65%--45%
02--70%--50%
03--70%--50%
04--75%--55%
05--75%--55%
06--80%--60%
07--80%--60%
08--85%--65%

I would hardly say having a base 35% chance of your spells just plain missing is a non-issue for an 8th level character. Those number are based on 16DEX character, which I would think is rare for a "standard wizard or sorcerer".

DS

 

[FireLance]

Can Connie survive a single round? Likely yes if they start at range (which seems reasonable), though the enemy could choose to flee. Then she can do another third of its health. If the rest of her party can do anything at all (another Conjurer is not out of the question, which would do the trick easily, but any combo that can do the final 1/3 between the three of them in two rounds will do), the dragon is dead.

For a 15th level spellcaster, the range of an orb spell is 60 ft. That's not much range, considering a wyrm red dragon has a breath weapon that also has a 60 ft. range (which deals 22d10 damage, Reflex DC 38 half), and has a fly speed of 200 ft. And, it's only a third if she expoits the dragon's elemental vulnerability. Otherwise, the damage she deals is closer to one-quarter its hit points.

Connie can deal pretty good damage against the dragon in the first round of combat, but that probably takes up all her 8th-level slots for the day. Even if she survives to the second round, she probably won't be able to repeat it.

 

[Rystil Arden]

For a 15th level spellcaster, the range of an orb spell is 60 ft. That's not much range, considering a wyrm red dragon has a breath weapon that also has a 60 ft. range (which deals 22d10 damage, Reflex DC 38 half), and has a fly speed of 200 ft. And, it's only a third if she expoits the dragon's elemental vulnerability. Otherwise, the damage she deals is closer to one-quarter its hit points.

Connie can deal pretty good damage against the dragon in the first round of combat, but that probably takes up all her 8th-level slots for the day. Even if she survives to the second round, she probably won't be able to repeat it.

The over 1/3rd (40.6% to be exact is how much Connie does of the dragon's HP) does not assume elemental vulnerability. Increase the damage by x1.5 (so 60%!) if she uses cold attacks and the dragon has no defense against them, but I think it's stretching for that to be the case. However, if they do use cold uncontested, then two Connies would kill the dragon before the dragon could go once if they won initiative.

I know about the breath weapon--she should probably be able to survive that breath weapon (assuming she has 20 to 22 Con after buffs and items, which is par for a Wizard of that level), though not by much (and above average but not-terribly-unlikely-damage might end her) unless she had some sort of Energy Resistance against it or made the save (and she isn't making that save).

She can do nearly as much damage with only 7th-level slots: 195. And probably she'll have one more 8th-level slot (don't forget bonus from high Int and the Conjuration slot, so 3) and so do 236.25. Two Connies will clearly kill the dragon on their own if it doesn't flee on the first round (and it most certainly has that option, though having the CR 24 monster flee from two level 15 characters on the first round of combat is fairly pathetic).

 

[KarinsDad]

So you are basically saying "Look, I can totally trick out a guy using all of my feats to be good at ranged-attacks with a wizard and rarely miss. Thus the ranged-touch attack roll is a non-issue." Well I would hope so! Rerun those number with the same character but NOT picking ranged feats and you get the following.

Level--Chance--Chance vs. Melee Occupied (happens a lot in our games)
01--65%--45%
02--70%--50%
03--70%--50%
04--75%--55%
05--75%--55%
06--80%--60%
07--80%--60%
08--85%--65%

I would hardly say having a base 35% chance of your spells just plain missing is a non-issue for an 8th level character. Those number are based on 16DEX character, which I would think is rare for a "standard wizard or sorcerer".

Dex 16 is not so rare for a PC halfling though. And, if your players are playing such that the 8th level arcane caster often has a 35% chance to miss with a ranged touch attack (i.e. having a ranged combatant type and not giving him opportunities to hit without the -4 penalty for being in melee), then they are not playing to the tactical level which they can.

The feats are not necessary to be an effective Orb tosser, they are just an example of what can be done to make Orbs slightly more guaranteed to hit (10% in that example). Our melee PCs in our game do things like take a 5 foot step back or to the side so that they are no longer engaged with a specific enemy and the range attackers can pelt them (i.e. no real need for precise shot if your Fighter types and other PCs often set it up for you, this is no different then setting up flank in the game). Bards and Clerics and Psions in our games do things like Inspire Courage and Bless and Entangling Ectoplasm. If players in your particular campaign do not maximize their capabilities with movement, spells, feats, etc., it does not mean it cannot be done in the game. It's trivially easy to work as a team and maximize capability in DND.

It is the synergy of abilities in the game that must be looked at when discussing balance issues, not just individual abilities in a fishbowl (although those too are important). DND is typically a group activity, not an individual one.

PS. That guy was nowhere near totally tricked out. He did not have a single spell or magic item to assist and really does not need any feats to help him be effective at chucking Orbs. At 8th level, he could easily have a +2 Dex item to help instead, for example.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Karinsdad--he's a halfling? You forgot to give him +5% more chance to hit to all categories then for the size bonus.

 

[KarinsDad]

Karinsdad--he's a halfling? You forgot to give him +5% more chance to hit to all categories then for the size bonus.

Actually, I remembered the +1 for size and forgot the +1 for the Point Blank Shot I gave him. Doh!

01 75% Point Blank Shot
02 80%
03 80% Precise Shot
04 85%
05 85%
06 95% Weapon Focus

 

[Rystil Arden]

Actually, I remembered the +1 for size and forgot the +1 for the Point Blank Shot I gave him. Doh!

01 75% Point Blank Shot
02 80%
03 80% Precise Shot
04 85%
05 85%
06 95% Weapon Focus

I wasn't counting PBS in case the enemy was farther than that once the range gets better--chance to hit AC 10 with +0 = 55%. Add 3 for Dex = 70%. 1 for size is 75%

 

[Nail]

Age of Worms is written by a diferent author for each section, and it certainly shows how playstyles can affect the usefulness of the orbs. The first two parts have a lot of one-on-one or low enemy count encounters, making orbs the best bet for damaging folks. Thenext part has fights where orbs are practically worthless because you're fighting over 10 foes. The next one breaks even on large vs. small encounters, and the last has again favors large groups.

That's a cool break down of some high level published adventures. Thanks again. Are each of those encounter groups an adventure? I'm unfamiliar with the AoW path. (Where's Hong when you need him? )

There's no question that orbs are great against 1 -2 foe encounters, in which the foes have spell resistance. (Even foes without SR don't get a save, so they are good for those too.)

But I think it's just as obvious that an orb is good in larger battles, i.e. the BBEG and his minions. Killing just 1 of 4 opponents for example, or even 1 of 5, makes things a heck of a lot easier for the rest of the party. (And IME, foes at higher level are not nicely grouped for AoE spells.)

As I've said before, the Orb spells become more reasonable if you just add SR = Yes. They are still on the nasty side, even with that adjustment, but I'll adjust.

 

[KarinsDad]

I wasn't counting PBS in case the enemy was farther than that once the range gets better--chance to hit AC 10 with +0 = 55%. Add 3 for Dex = 70%. 1 for size is 75%

I was doing touch AC 11. 65+% of the creatures in the MM have touch AC 11 or lower. That's a majority of opponents.

Since the use of an Orb is under the control of the caster (just like taking or not taking feats to enhance it is under control of the caster), whether to use one or not is situationally dependent. Since Orbs are close range attacks, typically the caster would use them within 30 feet if he had PBS, just to gain the extra +1. In fact, he could not use them beyond 30 feet until 4th level as is. So, the +1 for PBS is forced at levels 1 to 3.