No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[KarinsDad]

They are perennial favourites, though the short range is sometimes an issue. Of all the things mentioned in this thread by the Orb=No SR people, short range is really the only one that has ever been an issue.

This is an issue for Psions as well. 80% of EPH psionic powers are Close range or less.

The difference, however, is that unlike the Psion with his energy powers, the arcane caster cannot just pick a different Orb-like spell (i.e. one that has all of the normal properties of the Orbs) with a longer range. The arcane caster must metamagic it to increase its range. The Psion can acquire a different energy psionic power with longer range and single target blast away at several different ranges.

 

[Cheiromancer]

It would be nice if arcanists could make some kind of direct magical attack against golems. Sure the orbs might be too good as written, but I can't help but feel that making them SR (yes) nerfs them too much.

How about a compromise? Say that yes, the energy collected by the orb spells is non-magical, but that the mode of delivery (the touch attack part) is partly magical. Against a creature with SR, therefore, the attack roll has to beat the creature's normal AC or the SR, whichever is lower. If the attack roll is too low, it indicates that the SR disrupted the orb and the energy dissipated harmlessly against the creature's physical defenses.

Having to make a ranged attack instead of a ranged touch attack is a much steeper cost for the benefit of ignoring SR. If a ranged touch attack is too little for the benefit, then perhaps a ranged attack would be enough. Better than having to beat an infinite SR, anyway.

 

[Mort]

Having to make a ranged attack instead of a ranged touch attack is a much steeper cost for the benefit of ignoring SR. If a ranged touch attack is too little for the benefit, then perhaps a ranged attack would be enough. Better than having to beat an infinite SR, anyway.

Im not so sure about that. Having some monster (of which golems are the prime example) that the mage can't just point blast and kill is a good thing as long as its not overused. It's not like a mage has no other options - when faced with unbeatable spell resistance most mages have a host of other things they can do: buff the other party members to deal with it, summon monster, contain the monster (evards, wall spells etc.). Just giving them another point blast and kill option promotes a lack of creativity and is boring to boot.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Having some monster (of which golems are the prime example) that the mage can't just point blast and kill is a good thing as long as its not overused. It's not like a mage has no other options - when faced with unbeatable spell resistance most mages have a host of other things they can do: buff the other party members to deal with it, summon monster, contain the monster (evards, wall spells etc.). Just giving them another point blast and kill option promotes a lack of creativity and is boring to boot.

True, but it seems that the designers of the orbs disagreed with this perspective. The option they provided (single target direct damage that replaces an SR check with a ranged touch attack) is unsatisfactory to some people; I just want to point out that there are potential fixes besides making the orb spells SR: Yes or banning them entirely.

But yeah. Rogues are expected to find alternatives to sneak attack when faced with COUPEs (constructs, oozes, undead, plants or elementals), why shouldn't arcanists be expected to find alternatives to direct damage? Of course, the weakness to this analogy is the growing number of feats, magic items and/or class abilities that allow the rogue to use sneak attacks even on COUPEs (or at least on some kinds of COUPEs).

 

[FireLance]

The over 1/3rd (40.6% to be exact is how much Connie does of the dragon's HP) does not assume elemental vulnerability. Increase the damage by x1.5 (so 60%!) if she uses cold attacks and the dragon has no defense against them, but I think it's stretching for that to be the case. However, if they do use cold uncontested, then two Connies would kill the dragon before the dragon could go once if they won initiative.

I know about the breath weapon--she should probably be able to survive that breath weapon (assuming she has 20 to 22 Con after buffs and items, which is par for a Wizard of that level), though not by much (and above average but not-terribly-unlikely-damage might end her) unless she had some sort of Energy Resistance against it or made the save (and she isn't making that save).

She can do nearly as much damage with only 7th-level slots: 195. And probably she'll have one more 8th-level slot (don't forget bonus from high Int and the Conjuration slot, so 3) and so do 236.25. Two Connies will clearly kill the dragon on their own if it doesn't flee on the first round (and it most certainly has that option, though having the CR 24 monster flee from two level 15 characters on the first round of combat is fairly pathetic).

Well, I'm assuming a twinned orb and a quickened orb, which will do an average of 45 x 3.5 = 157.5 damage in the first round. That's about 25.8% of an average wyrm red dragon's hit points of 610.

And, assuming a starting Intelligence of 15, 3 level increases and a +6 Intelligence-boosting item, that's an Intelligence of 24, which isn't enough to get a bonus 8th-level spell. This leaves Connie with just one 8th-level spell slot for being a 15th-level wizard, and the bonus 8th-level slot for being a specialist, both of which will be used up in the first round.

With 7th-level slots, she can manage a maximized orb, for 90 damage, and a quickened, empowered, lesser orb for an average of 33.5 damage. That's 123.5 damage in the second round by my calculations.

What did you have Connie do to achieve those results?

 

[Nail]

Rogues are expected to find alternatives to sneak attack when faced with COUPEs (constructs, oozes, undead, plants or elementals), why shouldn't arcanists be expected to find alternatives to direct damage?

Right.

But in the case of Orbs, they are still a *great* option against creatures with SR (minus golems). Sure, the (house ruled Orb) allows SR....but there is No Save.

 

[Nail]

Having some monster (of which golems are the prime example) that the mage can't just point blast and kill is a good thing as long as its not overused. It's not like a mage has no other options - when faced with unbeatable spell resistance most mages have a host of other things they can do: buff the other party members to deal with it, summon monster, contain the monster (evards, wall spells etc.). Just giving them another point blast and kill option promotes a lack of creativity and is boring to boot.

IME, golems can be cramped pretty effectively with battlefield control spells (EBT works well, frex). Then just let the adamantine arrows do their job......

 

[James McMurray]

I also agree with James's assessment that Orbs blow in that one encounter with multiple incorporeals.

I didn't even think to look at whether something was incorporeal, and thus immune to all the orbs except the Force one. If I listed it as "orbs would blow" it must have been a decent sized group of critters early on in the list (before I got lazy). There may be a bunch of those encounters that look great for orbs because there's just one big foe, but really stink because the orbs can't hurt it.

 

[KarinsDad]

But in the case of Orbs, they are still a *great* option against creatures with SR (minus golems). Sure, the (house ruled Orb) allows SR....but there is No Save.

Precisely.

Instead of a fair chance of half damage, there is instead a slim chance of double damage.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I didn't even think to look at whether something was incorporeal, and thus immune to all the orbs except the Force one. If I listed it as "orbs would blow" it must have been a decent sized group of critters early on in the list (before I got lazy). There may be a bunch of those encounters that look great for orbs because there's just one big foe, but really stink because the orbs can't hurt it.

Oh right--I forgot about the force orb against incorporeals.