No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[James McMurray]

That's a cool break down of some high level published adventures. Thanks again. Are each of those encounter groups an adventure? I'm unfamiliar with the AoW path. (Where's Hong when you need him? )

Yeah, each one is a single adventure. Most of the large group fights are not BBEG with mooks, they're groups of the same type of creature, or a few groups of a few different types.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Yeah, each one is a single adventure. Most of the large group fights are not BBEG with mooks, they're groups of the same type of creature, or a few groups of a few different types.

Yeah, that's an awesome breakdown! By the way, in the groups of 10+ of the same type of creature, just how hard are the individual enemies, though? Are these significant encounters that require an AoE specialist to whittle them down just to give the melees a chance, or is a full attack going to be a sure thing to take at least one down? These data seem to suggest that you want to have a bit of mid-level AoE, but you probably still want your highest level blasts to be orbs.

Also, sometimes it depends how many encounters they expect you to fight in a single day--do you have a rough estimate of that for these adventures? I ask because it seems often that groups save all the big guns (sometimes even when they shouldn't!) for the peak difficulty ending encounter.

 

[James McMurray]

I haven't read through the entire adventures, I just went through and counted monsters, so can't really give more details than that. Apart from a few that are obviously supposed to be single encounters for the day or drawn out sieges I don't know what the expected pacing is.

For the most part encounter ELs were equal to or higher than the party's expected character level for that adventure, except in areas where monsters were tightly packed and likely to join forces. That's just a rough rememberance of my thoughts as I read the ELs though, not me going back and double checking my memory.

I plan to run AoW eventually, but since we'd start at first and those start at 15th, it'll be a while before I sit and read them straight through. For now I'm too busy reading Exalted rules to prepare for a campaign I'll hopefully start after we finish playing the introductory adventure.

 

[Nail]

Yeah, each one is a single adventure. Most of the large group fights are not BBEG with mooks, they're groups of the same type of creature, or a few groups of a few different types.

I wish I had a breakdown like this for a few adventure paths...it would be useful data for my own game! (I home-brew adventures and campaigns.)

Of the 74 encounters (in 5 adventures):

• 35 are against 1 foe,
• 6 are against 2 foes,
• 4 are against 3 foes,
• 8 are against 4 foes, and
• 21 are against larger groups.

I'd claim Orbs would be optimal on encounters up to 4 creatures; if so, Orbs are used in 72% of the encounters! That's quite a few!

 

[Rystil Arden]

I wish I had a breakdown like this for a few adventure paths...it would be useful data for my own game! (I home-brew adventures and campaigns.)

Of the 74 encounters (in 5 adventures):

• 35 are against 1 foe,
• 6 are against 2 foes,
• 4 are against 3 foes,
• 8 are against 4 foes, and
• 21 are against larger groups.

I'd claim Orbs would be optimal on encounters up to 4 creatures; if so, Orbs are used in 72% of the encounters! That's quite a few!

I'd call the 4 foes a wash, not advantage Orbs, unless at least 2 of the enemies had high Reflex saves / Evasion / SR / spell immunity.

I also agree with James's assessment that Orbs blow in that one encounter with multiple incorporeals.

 

[James McMurray]

I'd personally call 3 foes a wash and 4 foes a slight advantage for area spells, but it really boils down to the terrain a lot of the time. Apart from a glance at a map to figure out why one or two low CR critters appear alone in rooms on a 17th+ level adventure I don't really know what the terrain is like.

Party makeup also helps decide where the breakoff point is for area spells, as it's possible, especially at levels 15+, to have a setup where even having multiple PCs in melee with all the enemies isn't going to stop you from hitting all the opponents with a nuke.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'd call the 4 foes a wash, not advantage Orbs, unless at least 2 of the enemies had high Reflex saves / Evasion / SR / spell immunity.

From my perspective, the tactical aspect of DND is about numerical and magical advantages. PCs tend to win, even against numerically superior forces, because they tend to have more magic (and often more powerful magic) than NPC enemies. It's rare to have an encounter with a group of enemies with as much magic as the PCs have (cause this is just begging for a TPK). So, most combat encounters tend to be with groups of mooks (i.e. less powerful than the PCs), or groups of mooks led by a few BBEGs at most, or one or two BBEGs by themselves (although some of the best and most memorable combats we've ever played are with a group of opposing adventurers of similar power and levels, but those are rare because they can easily lead to a TPK).

Typically, there are at least 4 PCs in most groups (I've played with smaller groups in the past, but it was rare). At higher levels, this number might exclude other allies such as cohorts or an animal companion. So although at low level, 4 enemies might be a numerical challenge for 4 PCs, it might be less of a numerical challenge at higher levels (or when there are more than 4 PCs in a group).

Another advantage of Orbs is to instantly wipe out a wounded foe in order to change the numerical odds and to free up allies to concentrate on other enemies. So, if on a given round the PC Fighter type does 30% to 50% damage to one NPC, the PC Arcane type can often more or less put that opponent away with an Orb (or with some form of metamagic Orb at real high levels) and hence, shift the numerical balance.

So, I'm not convinced that Orbs and Area Effects spells are typically a wash with 4 opponents. It's not always easy to get the opponents to cooperate in order to get even 2 enemies out of 4 with an area effect spell (shy of metamagic), it often requires more enemies in situations where the enemies cannot quickly engage the PCs in melee.

When area affect spells do target a lot of enemies, they are great. It's just not that often that prime area affect opportunities present themselves. At least IME.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Karinsdad--it's true that tactics and terrain are a big factor. I'd say 4 is the tipping point where it is almost a wash because of the slight chance of blasting all 4 in a constrained areA with a lucky shot, but I admit I am being charitable to the AoE. Certainly 3 or lower is a clear advantage Orb.

 

[Nail]

So, I'm not convinced that Orbs and Area Effects spells are typically a wash with 4 opponents.

That's where I sit too, at least if we're taling about direct damage spells (rather than battlefield control).

Against a party with an APL of 15, a EL 16 of 4 opponents means each is a CR 12. How much damage could a 8th level Orb (metamagicked) do? Enough to one-shot a CR 12, maybe (with no save, no SR)? If they were classed NPCs, the answer would be a definite "yes".

IOW, knocking out 25% of the opposition in one round's worth of actions by only one of the PCs is a good deal.




.......FWIW, I'm currently play-testing the "SR=Yes" Orbs. One of my players is a Warmage, and if there's any class they'll be overpowered with, it'd be that one.

 

[Rystil Arden]

That's where I sit too, at least if we're taling about direct damage spells (rather than battlefield control).

Against a party with an APL of 15, a EL 16 of 4 opponents means each is a CR 12. How much damage could a 8th level Orb (metamagicked) do? Enough to one-shot a CR 12, maybe (with no save, no SR)? If they were classed NPCs, the answer would be a definite "yes".

IOW, knocking out 25% of the opposition in one round's worth of actions by only one of the PCs is a good deal.




.......FWIW, I'm currently play-testing the "SR=Yes" Orbs. One of my players is a Warmage, and if there's any class they'll be overpowered with, it'd be that one.

I've been playing with the SR=Yes Orbs for a long time. They're also moved to Evocation. They are perennial favourites, though the short range is sometimes an issue. Of all the things mentioned in this thread by the Orb=No SR people, short range is really the only one that has ever been an issue.