No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[Nail]

They didn't change the constructs, they just put a limit of 1 out on the field at once .....

Huh?

Wow, that's a weird nerf. I agree such a nerf is not the right direction.

 

[Nail]

I think that the two sides are represented fairly well here based on their respective merits (examples, rationale, and numbers vs "No it's not" denials) for anyone lurking to read it.

Agreed. Well done, people.

 

[Deset Gled]

Agreed. Well done, people.

Well, I'm a little dissapointed. I thought that we were supposed to be able to keep this going until someone decided to create a poll on the topic, at which point we would get this thread closed and start it all over again.

 

[two]

@ Seetan:

There are people who thought 3.0e Haste was fine as it was.

There are people who think Wraithstrike fine as is.

...of course there are people who think the Orb line of spells are fine! (sigh)

Something I pointed out during the long discussion of Wraithstrike.

(Some) people still maintain Haste 3.0 is balanced because it works ok "in their campaign" (as if this is relevant to the game as a whole). And this despite Haste 3.0 being hit by the nerf bat incredibly hard in 3.5, and... all for the better. When you have the game designers agreeing that a spell is crazy-whack and changing it in a revision, it is not unreasonable to claim that the spell was, in fact, crazy-whack.

I think some people simply can't understand how something might work OK in their game but be unbalanced/crazy for the game as a whole.

Everyone's campaign is specific; some players might not ever cast Haste 3.0 just because they don't like the feel of it (or cast it very rarely). Which means it is not a problem in the campaign... which means.... it is not a problem in the campaign. And that's it.

People that have the Orb spells in high-end games - and they view the spells as balanced - likely don't have players that are using them much, or doing relatively trivial things to maximize the orb's power (like maximizing or metamagicking them).

That's about the most generous way to view it.

It is either that or people can't understand that the Orb spells (particularly at middle or high levels) do more damage than an evoker who specializes in busting through SR.

The equation is something like this:

Cast Orb spell, do X damage on average.

OR

Cast evocation spell by a SR busting specialist, and do less than X damage on average.

The evocation guy has burned feats and money and energy and etc. to bust through SR and still can't keep up with a guy just standing there casting equal-level Orb spells.

Orb spells are overpowered for the reason that Haste 3.0 was overpowered.

They are so good, by such a margin, that they are always taken (unless barred by school or theme or player burn-out). And they are so good that, when taken, they are cast a lot.

Remember 3.0 battles? Me: haste, cast spell | cast 2 spells next round. Repeat.

Now it's more like... Me: cast orb spell | cast orb spell | etc.

There are clearly some situations where you don't want to cast an orb spell. An attack by a bunch of mooks is one of them. At middle or high level, this is not much of a threat. Orbs seem to do worst in situations where the danger is lowest. They do best in situations where the danger is highest (2-3 really nasty creatures with high DR and high AC and possibly other defenses).

But... I know this is not going to convince anyone. That's fine. I don't think I convinced anyone when I was screaming about 3.0 haste being crazy a few years ago. I suppose my broader point is that you are not going to convince everyone of something even when the situation is clear cut. And that's fine. We all don't need to ban the Orb spells or modify them (allowing SR, etc.). It's just a game, after all.

{goes and sits in a yoga pose, and opens himself up to the wisdom of the ages. not much trickles down from above}

 

[borc killer]

Well, I'm a little dissapointed. I thought that we were supposed to be able to keep this going until someone decided to create a poll on the topic, at which point we would get this thread closed and start it all over again.

<--- almost made a poll. LOL

 

[Nail]

<--- almost made a poll. LOL

lol!!!

 

[James McMurray]

(examples, rationale, and numbers vs "No it's not" denials)

 

[Rystil Arden]

<--- almost made a poll. LOL

That would have been hilarious Was the poll meant to be a topical joke based on tradition of contentious threads or a serious poll?

 

[Anthraxus]

Not that I'll convince anyone of anything, and I don't have any hard numbers, but...

Last night, I played my Conjurer (10th level) with several memorized Lesser Orbs and one Force orb and Blast of flame, with Spell Focus Conjuration. I am a blaster/summoner-type.

I summoned once or twice, used maybe one orb spell, and I'd say about 8 evocation spells in 3 combats.

In most situations, I'd have probably missed with the orbs(cover and no precise shot), even with a decent dexterity and such. Magic missile was useful. Empowered Fireball very useful(generally hit 2-3 enemies per combat with fireball's ares). Not many of the creatures had SR, so hitting more than one enemy and having *them* roll a save instead of me firing an orb and only targeting one enemy with a decent chance of missing, well...

It's highly situational, and I haven't found the orb spells that overpowering. Oh well.

 

[Gorin Stonecleaver]

Here's the thing

What is good for the goose is good for the gander..... meaning if PC's can use them so can the BBEG as long as its available to both sides can anything really be broken?