No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[SlagMortar]

What 50% chance to affect incorporeal creatures? As an instantaneous creation effect, after it's brought into being it's a nonmagical effect, and hence it can't affect them at all. The Orb of Force can, but that's because of it being Force, not because it's get a 50% miss chance by being magical.

An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead, but a hit with holy water has a 50% chance of not affecting an incorporeal creature

(emphasis mine)
Facts:
1. Orbs are spells that deal damage.
2. Spells that deal damage have a 50% chance to affect incorporeal foes.
3. Incorporeal creatures are immune to all nonmagical attack forms.

Therefore:
Orbs have a 50% chance to affect incorporeal foes and orbs must be a magical attack form.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Then by all means do so. Hamstringing one competitor does not make for a fair fight.

Done! In exchange, Connie takes Arcane Thesis and Easy Metamagic (Quicken).

Evan level 20 increases to 105 from 77 (Connie level 20 just missing the two feats did 168.5 remember) and Connie increases to 296.25.

Evan level 15 increases to 35.875 from 21 (Connie level 15 just missing the two feats did 157.5) and Connie increases to 247.5.

Of particular note--a party of three level 15 Connies is nearly guaranteed to kill the dragon in one round if they are in range thanks to the Orb spells not allowing SR. The problem with this being the case is that the dragon's CR is 9 higher than their level, and three is lower than the usual party size. Allowing SR reduces Connie's damage to 74.25.

 

[Someone]

(emphasis mine)
Facts:
1. Orbs are spells that deal damage.
2. Spells that deal damage have a 50% chance to affect incorporeal foes.
3. Incorporeal creatures are immune to all nonmagical attack forms.

Therefore:
Orbs have a 50% chance to affect incorporeal foes and orbs must be a magical attack form.

However it also can be stated as follows:

Facts:
1. Orbs are spells that conjure a nonmagical attack form.
2. Nonmagical attack forms have no chance to affect incorporeal foes.

Therefore

3. Incorporeal creatures are immune to orbs.

 

[Rystil Arden]

However it also can be stated as follows:

Facts:
1. Orbs are spells that conjure a nonmagical attack form.
2. Nonmagical attack forms have no chance to affect incorporeal foes.

Therefore

3. Incorporeal creatures are immune to orbs.

But the Crystal Shard power (and similar spells) deals slashing damage that automatically penetrates DR, right? Even though slashing damage normally doesn't unless conjured by a spell.

 

[Someone]

But the Crystal Shard power (and similar spells) deals slashing damage that automatically penetrates DR, right? Even though slashing damage normally doesn't unless conjured by a spell.

Depends on the status of the Crystal shard as a magic/psionic effect that for some reason doesn't allow spell resistance or if it's a real item created by the psionic power and propelled towards the enemy that for some reason ignores armor. Complete psionics tends to think it's the second option.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Depends on the status of the Crystal shard as a magic/psionic effect that for some reason doesn't allow spell resistance or if it's a real item created by the psionic power and propelled towards the enemy that for some reason ignores armor. Complete psionics tends to think it's the second option.

Are you saying that Crystal Shard and other powers and spells that deal slashing damage (or the like) do not ignore DR? I thought it was universally accepted that it did.

 

[Someone]

Are you saying that Crystal Shard and other powers and spells that deal slashing damage (or the like) do not ignore DR?

Am I saying that? At most I've said that you can't have your cake and eat it too. If the Shard or the orb are no longer magical things then they should not ignore DR. Would you let your psion use True creation to create weapons that ignore DR?

I thought it was universally accepted that it did

It's somewhat less than universal. By the RAW metacreativity powers don't ignore DR. As long you don't used autohynosis to convince yourself that Complete psionics was a bad dream.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Am I saying that? At most I've said that you can't have your cake and eat it too. If the Shard or the orb are no longer magical things then they should not ignore DR. Would you let your psion use True creation to create weapons that ignore DR?



It's somewhat less than universal. By the RAW metacreativity powers don't ignore DR. As long you don't used autohynosis to convince yourself that Complete psionics was a bad dream.

I agree that you shouldn't be able to have your cake and eat it too--but I want it changed so I can eat it and WotC seems to be movin more towards just having the cake.

I didn't remember that particular nerf from CPsi. Wow, that's one more way that they kicked Shapers in the nuts

EDIT: Actually, this is more like just pulling their hair--the Astral Construct thing is the kick in the junk.

 

[James McMurray]

(emphasis mine)
Facts:
1. Orbs are spells that create a nonmagical ernegy source that deals damage.
2. Spells that deal damage have a 50% chance to affect incorporeal foes.
3. Incorporeal creatures are immune to all nonmagical attack forms.

Therefore:
Orbs have no chance to affect incorporeal foes and orbs must be a magical attack form.

Your "fact" 1 doesn't jibe with the say instantaneous cretions work, so I fixed it for you.

 

[James McMurray]

Done! In exchange, Connie takes Arcane Thesis and Easy Metamagic (Quicken).

What other feats has my 20th level evoker gotten? You're trying to use specific examples to prove a general case. It doesn't work that way.

Are you saying that Crystal Shard and other powers and spells that deal slashing damage (or the like) do not ignore DR? I thought it was universally accepted that it did.

Can we necro one of the 5,0000 other threads about Crystal Shard rather than trying to make a case for nonmagical objects hitting incorporeal creatures because of how Crystal Shard works (or at least, how it works depending on who you ask)?