No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[Rystil Arden]

Note that the rules also say the fire from the orb of fire is magical because it has a 50% chance - because its a spell - of affecting an incorporeal creature and incorporeal are immune to all non-magical attack sources. By the rules, orb of fire makes magical fire that is not subject to spell resistance.

This is true. The "nonmagical" crowd have yet to explain the 50% chance to affect incorporeal.

 

[KarinsDad]

Not only that, but it still ignores that the Evoker's shtick is in taking out hordes of mooks or units of minions as much if not moreso than on one one situations. Furthermore there's going to be more low level enemies than high level ones.

I must have missed this in the description of the Evocation School of Magic.

From what I read, it was about casting energy spells.

 

[KarinsDad]

This is true. The "nonmagical" crowd have yet to explain the 50% chance to affect incorporeal.

Actually, I prefer to go with the magical fire because it is not an object or creature and hence, the instantaneous conjuration creation rules do not apply (and hence, Orbs cannot penetrate AMF).

Course, the moment I do that, I should also throw it into the Evocation school and add in SR to be consistent with the rest of the rules and with the balance of the rest of the rules.

 

[KarinsDad]

In my opinion, the Orb spells are imbalanced.

If you removed the "no SR" from them, they would be balanced.

If you then also changed them from Conjuration to Evocation, they would be properly placed (but this is more of a flavor thing, I like the spell school rules to be as close to consistent as possible).

This sums up my take on the subject.

 

[Seeten]

I am astonished there are people who dont think the Orb spells are ridiculous.

They are in the wrong school, AND they are too powerful.

Both, at the same time.

All I hear from those disagreeing are excuses. Weird.

 

[James McMurray]

No, I'm saying that taking them leads the discussion to a place of comparing feat optimisation where it probably shouldn't go (because if I use those two feats for the Conjurer to make the Conjurer even stronger, you could then claim that it's only because of those two feats).

You're saying "let's compare situations" and then setting up a situation where a character that needs to penetrate SR to be effective hasn't done anything at all to enhance his ability to penetrate SR. If you want a fair comparison, you'll have to try something else, cuz that just son't work.

Why yes. Yes I am. In fact, you've hit the nail on the head. For direct damage anyway, and that's what we're talking about here.

What I was talking about was you saying that Orbs make Spell Pemnetration pointless, period.

There is no possible reason to prepare Polar Ray over Twinned Orb of X (uses the same slot for much more damage even without SR, and extremely more damage with SR).

I've already conceded that Polar Ray is a crappy spell.

With Orbs in existence (if you don't take the better way out and houserule them to allow SR, of course), SR no longer matters because your staple attack spell doesn't allow it.

Silly me, I thought the staple attack spells were the ones that did lots of damage to lots of people, but then again maybe my groups fights larger numbers of foes than yours.

The Old Way when Orbs didn't exist--

Situation 1: Enemy doesn't have SR--Optimally you would cast an Evocation, since they do much more damage than the Conjuration equivalents and they do it right now. You have to prepare some Evocations so that you can do this though. If you're stuck with only Conjurations you're in trouble.
Situation 2: Enemy has SR--Optimally you would cast a Conjuration spell that ignores SR, but if you're any good at caster level, the Evocation with the SR chance actually looks attractive here too, but either way, the presence of SR lowers your damage output.

For case two, I'd say that optimally you'd rather set yourself up as a character that can penetrate SR.

 

[James McMurray]

This is true. The "nonmagical" crowd have yet to explain the 50% chance to affect incorporeal.

What 50% chance to affect incorporeal creatures? As an instantaneous creation effect, after it's brought into being it's a nonmagical effect, and hence it can't affect them at all. The Orb of Force can, but that's because of it being Force, not because it's get a 50% miss chance by being magical.

 

[Rystil Arden]

You're saying "let's compare situations" and then setting up a situation where a character that needs to penetrate SR to be effective hasn't done anything at all to enhance his ability to penetrate SR. If you want a fair comparison, you'll have to try something else, cuz that just son't work.

Except that I can give the Conjurer two feats in place of those that increase the Orb damage even more, as I've mentioned every previous time you made that point.

What I was talking about was you saying that Orbs make Spell Pemnetration pointless, period.

No, I said that they were pointless for Evan the Evoker--because Evan the Evoker is better off prepping all Conjuration spells anyway

Silly me, I thought the staple attack spells were the ones that did lots of damage to lots of people, but then again maybe my groups fights larger numbers of foes than yours.

Or larger numbers of foes who stand in formation for them perhaps? At least at high levels, most big encounters where the best spells are needed are not just with a large groups of worthless mooks. They are with a smaller number of strong things, possibly just one or two.

For case two, I'd say that optimally you'd rather set yourself up as a character that can penetrate SR.

Which still does less damage, so why?

 

[Nifft]

I am astonished there are people who dont think the Orb spells are ridiculous.

They are in the wrong school, AND they are too powerful.

Both, at the same time.

IMHO, acid orb (not lesser) is in the correct school; it's merely too strong.

As to the rest, I agree with you.

Cheers, -- N

 

[James McMurray]

Except that I can give the Conjurer two feats in place of those that increase the Orb damage even more, as I've mentioned every previous time you made that point.

Then by all means do so. Hamstringing one competitor does not make for a fair fight.

No, I said that they were pointless for Evan the Evoker--because Evan the Evoker is better off prepping all Conjuration spells anyway

Then the orb spells must make all other spells useless, unless you're claiming that Evan's only job is to deal damage to a single target.

Or larger numbers of foes who stand in formation for them perhaps? At least at high levels, most big encounters where the best spells are needed are not just with a large groups of worthless mooks. They are with a smaller number of strong things, possibly just one or two.

It's impossible to argue playstyle, so I'll just say that my group appears to do things differently than yours.

Which still does less damage, so why?

Because energy damage to a single target via ranged touch attack is not the only thing a 20th level evoker should concern himself with?