No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[Nail]

So now you're saying that with the existence of orbs spell resistance no longer matters at all?

Why yes. Yes I am. In fact, you've hit the nail on the head.

Ouch!

Yep, I can vouch fer that.

 

[James McMurray]

You honestly think that Orbs invalidate all other spells that must penetrate spell resistance, and therefor spell resistance itself no longer matter?

 

[Nail]

I am astonished there are people who dont think the Orb spells are ridiculous.

@ Seetan:

There are people who thought 3.0e Haste was fine as it was.

There are people who think Wraithstrike fine as is.

...of course there are people who think the Orb line of spells are fine! (sigh)

 

[Rystil Arden]

What other feats has my 20th level evoker gotten? You're trying to use specific examples to prove a general case. It doesn't work that way.

We can say that any other feats will be taken by the other and thus cancel each other out (although I assumed both had all the metamagic they needed, so at least Energy Sub, Empower, Maximize, Quicken, Twin, and Energy Admixture (the last useful against Energy Resistance, since it doesn't shoot twice like Twin) . With a bigger slew of obscure feats, both numbers will be higher, but it won't matter--we're talking about the Orbs here versus Evocation spells. The more caveats and provisos added on top as we pile on extra abilities on either side, the less and less clear it is what effect is caused by the Orbs. If it isn't clear to you the effect of the Orbs now, it should be less clear later, particularly with more and more other components added. I, for one, care far less about the more-impressive numbers I just put out for you because it has other factors involved beyond just the Orbs. I will care less and less as more changes to the two characters are incorporated. I could do it, but when the Orb specialist comes out with an even larger advantage at the end, you're not going to budge, just like now, so I'm not going to waste my time. You pretty clearly won't be convinced by math, no matter what.

 

[Rystil Arden]

You honestly think that Orbs invalidate all other spells that must penetrate spell resistance, and therefor spell resistance itself no longer matter?

Yes, SR doesn't matter against damage dealing spells with the Orbs around. Well, that's not exactly the case--it matters insomuch as now Evocation sucks and Orbs rule because of it, but in combat with the no-SR Orbs as an option and a Wizard who chooses wisely, yes SR no longer matters. And that is why orbs are broken.

 

[Nail]

You honestly think that Orbs invalidate all other spells that must penetrate spell resistance, and therefor spell resistance itself no longer matter?

If you have an enemy who has SR, you use Conjuration spells.

It used to be that meant you'd do little direct damage to them, but you could hamper them in other (significant!) ways. ...Or you'd help buff your party's fighters so they could deal with the threat.

Now, with the Orb spells, if there is a threat with a high SR, you just nuke it with an Orb spell. Who needs fellow party members anymore? Who bothers hampering the SR enemy anymore? Just kill it.

 

[James McMurray]

After 6 pages should we agree to disagree? You're not going to convince me of any of the following things:

1) Orbs invalidate spell resistance. There's just too many other things that orbs can't do that spell resistance effects.

2) Orbs (except Force) being conjuration nerfs the evoker. There's just too many things the evoker can do, including mass nukes, that the conjurer can't.

3) Orbs are infinite duration damage, fires that need no fuel, nonmagical, and can hit incorporeal creatures.

 

[Nail]

EDIT: Actually, this is more like just pulling their hair--the Astral Construct thing is the kick in the junk.

I missed this: what did they do to AC? Don't tell me they finally got around to nerfing AC.....Life can't be that good.

 

[Rystil Arden]

After 6 pages should we agree to disagree? You're not going to convince me of any of the following things:

1) Orbs invalidate spell resistance. There's just too many other things that orbs can't do that spell resistance effects.

2) Orbs (except Force) being conjuration nerfs the evoker. There's just too many things the evoker can do, including mass nukes, that the conjurer can't.

3) Orbs are infinite duration damage, fires that need no fuel, nonmagical, and can hit incorporeal creatures.

Yes, I figured that out in post 224. As I said there, regardless of the math, you aren't going to care, so I'm not going to go to the effort of producing more. I think that the two sides are represented fairly well here based on their respective merits (examples, rationale, and numbers vs "No it's not" denials) for anyone lurking to read it. The question is this: is the OP satisfied? If so, we can probably be done here.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I missed this: what did they do to AC? Don't tell me they finally got around to nerfing AC.....Life can't be that good.

They didn't change the constructs, they put a limit of 1 out on the field at once and then created a PrC that lets you still be worse than a Shaper pre CPsi. I would have much rather they weakened the constructs than create such a silly limit. Can you imagine telling a Conjurer specialised in summoning that she can only have 1 summoned creature out on the field at once, even if she uses a higher-level summons to summon 1d3?