No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[Felix]

They have additional party members now? I didn't get the memo.

Psst: the dragon conversation has always had a party, at least as far back as page 5.

With Orb average damage, if the rest of the party is doing anything, the dragon is dead by round 2 of attacks (and this includes the 15th-level Conjurer vs the vastly stronger Dragon, the Orbs are just that powerful). The damage is already around 25% of the dragon's total per round for the Conjurer only.

So check your memo in-box. There may be some other neat little tidbits of information floating around in this thread you may have overlooked.

Good thing this messageboard doesn't have TPS reports.

 

[Notmousse]

It's more along the lines of this:

And why is it like this? Is it because his position is more active in voicing their opinion, or the OP doesn't understand why the spells bypass SR, or what?

If you don't offer a defense for your town against his fiery-breath, talons, and claws, your town will fall.

How am I suppose to come up with a counter to something not shown? He's never shown all his work (or if he has never all in one place). The number of things I don't have information on about this scenario are legion, from the kind of dragon, the age of the casters, the age of the dragon, the race of the casters, a complete list of feats if human, other spells known, distance from dragon, awareness of dragon, awareness of casters, if others are on the caster's side, if the dragon has the full allotment of feats (a single selection of Improved Toughness gives even the White dragon 36 additional HP).

Or, put another way, where's your counterargument? Where's your proof that his numbers are wrong?

Where's his proof his numbers are right? Where's his proof anything he's come up with is correct? I've already found that one of the feats he used was either misremembered from a book that wouldn't apply to the casters, or from Dragon magazine which is notorious for being overpowered in the cirlces I've been in. What is there to say there's not other mistakes in his numbers which I don't have sufficient data to recheck his numbers?

 

[Seeten]

Its like that because he has provided proof, while you have only provided obfuscation, which I have to assume is because you are, for some reason, afraid of the consequences if a Conjurer isnt a better nuker than an Evoker.

 

[Notmousse]

Psst: the dragon conversation has always had a party, at least as far back as page 5.

Who are the rest of the party? When did 'always' mean four pages into the thread? Why are they in an example about the sheer brokeness of a series of spells? Why is a throw away line in one post suddenly canon, but a whole post about ways to change the scenario is disregarded?

On second thought, I won't ask what you mean by report.

 

[Felix]

How am I suppose to come up with a counter to something not shown? He's never shown all his work (or if he has never all in one place). The number of things I don't have information on about this scenario are legion...

By doing this you reject the general argument.

In post 343 you reject a specific argument presented, though you don't say exactly what specifics you are unhappy with.

How is it that you can be satisfied with an argument? Is there something that you are looking for, that we* may show you, that would convince you? Or have you decided to not be convinced? In which case, in an argument with someone that has decided to do so, there is no point even in arguing that the world is round.

If blind conviction withstands verifiable truth, what chance do we have when the truth is more subjective, as it is in this situation?

So, are there numbers that may exist that would compel you, or are you convinced of their helplessness to sway you?

---

*And by "we", I mean "Rystil Arden".

 

[Felix]

Who are the rest of the party? Why are they in an example about the sheer brokeness of a series of spells? Why is a throw away line in one post suddenly canon, but a whole post about ways to change the scenario is disregarded?

It shows that the assumption of a party has been part of the scenario for a long, long time that you have been unaware of.

On second thought, I won't ask what you mean by report.

It was a reference to memos, not having seen them, and being reminded that you missed them over and over again.

 

[KarinsDad]

Maximized Empowered Scorching Ray (same level spell as maximized orb) yields 108 points (216 on criticals, 0 for misses). Thus the orb spells are underdamaged compared to an SRD-only option.

If one were only to look at damage and your math were correct, your point would be well taken. The metamagicked Scorching Ray does do 3 more average damage than the metamagicked Orb with no other factors considered (93 versus 90).

However, these are 8th level spells.

By the time the casters are throwing 8th level spells, there are more defenses against the Scorching Ray which do not affect the Orbs as greatly. For example:

Energy Resistance 5: Scorching Ray 78, Orb 85
Energy Resistance 10: Scorching Ray 63, Orb 80
Energy Resistance 15: Scorching Ray 48, Orb 75
Energy Resistance 20: Scorching Ray 33, Orb 70
Energy Resistance 30: Scorching Ray 3, Orb 60

Also note that Fire Resistance is found on more creatures in the Monster Manual than any other type of resistance. One could research different Energy type Scorching Rays, but as a rule of thumb, those are typically not available in many campaigns.

Also, Spell Resistance. The Orb blows through SR completely. Scorching Ray does not.

Plus, the Orb still has the save for a secondary effect.

Scorching Ray can be stopped by both versions of Globe of Invulnerability whereas the Orb can only be stopped by the 6th level version (presumably).


Overall, these particular metamagic versions of Scorching Ray and Orb still have an edge of Orb over Scorching Ray. In an average campaign, the metamagicked Orb will average a lot more damage at 17th+ level in the long run.

 

[Notmousse]

In short, if we're to even use this scenario (which I've already poked a hole in with the nonexistant feat, and is heavily biased towards the orb user), I want all the details to look over.

At the very least how a party of X many people can reliably manage to sneak all of themselves into a dragon's lair (where they are most of the time), not be caught by surprise (Remember, even a white dragon has 40 spot and listen as a great wyrm).

I half expect someone to repeatedly tell me 'you want answers' as I say 'I want the truth'.

 

[Land Outcast]

Note: CRs are thought with direct face-to-face encounters in mind.

 

[Twowolves]

Last time I checked, almost all the dragons regardless of age or color, had a Dex of 10. That's an Init of +0, or +4 if they have Imp Init. Are you seriously saying that A) a conjurer with a Dex of 14 won't win initiative more often than not or B) said conjurer won't have ANY defensive spells up (like, say RESIST (dragon's breath weapon-flavored) ELEMENTS?

You don't need to know what bonus feat a human conjurer took, what his zodiac sign is, or if he likes chocolate over vanilla to understand RA's point. You appear to be intentionally obtuse, refusing to counter numbers with numbers, instead deflecting and obfuscating for no other reason than that you don't have a good counter arguement. "I don't believe the numbers" doesn't cut it when your final word is "I just don't, that's why".