No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[hong]

In short, if we're to even use this scenario (which I've already poked a hole in with the nonexistant feat, and is heavily biased towards the orb user), I want all the details to look over.

Prove that the details are relevant.

At the very least how a party of X many people can reliably manage to sneak all of themselves into a dragon's lair (where they are most of the time), not be caught by surprise (Remember, even a white dragon has 40 spot and listen as a great wyrm).

Prove that this is relevant.

I half expect someone to repeatedly tell me 'you want answers' as I say 'I want the truth'.

No, no. The truth is out there.

 

[Twowolves]

At the very least how a party of X many people can reliably manage to sneak all of themselves into a dragon's lair (where they are most of the time), not be caught by surprise (Remember, even a white dragon has 40 spot and listen as a great wyrm).

Gee, I dunno, maybe Silence and Invisibility? Teleport? Etherealness? Walk right up and knock?

 

[Notmousse]

Its like that because he has provided proof, while you have only provided obfuscation, which I have to assume is because you are, for some reason, afraid of the consequences if a Conjurer isnt a better nuker than an Evoker.

What? Ok, I'm rooting for orbs to not be broken because I secretly think that if they're 'proven' not to be broken on an internet forum that I profit? I hate to tell you but as far as I know there's not even a single person I game with on this forum, much less any gamer that has influence on what goes on IMC.

And I still don't see his work shown. Oh sure I see that he picked some feats, that his characters *could* have such and such items, and stats, but not the concrete whole.

If you have his entire proof please provide to me the following information:

What kind of dragon is this
Who are the other members of the party (with complete stats)
What form of chargen is being used (how are stats generated, are we using any varient rules, is unearthed arcana/arcana unearthed involved)
What sources are allowed (dragon, quintessential dandelion eater, various d20 stuff?)
Is the dragon sleeping
Is any of the dragon's treasure useful to the either side (I'd ask if treasure were there, but since there's adventurers involved I think it's safe to assume)
Is the dragon's treasure easily accessable to either side.

If you're able to answer these questions I would like links to the posts where the answers are obtained.

 

[Notmousse]

Note: CRs are thought with direct face-to-face encounters in mind.

But is that how they're always, or even normally encountered?

 

[hong]

What? Ok, I'm rooting for orbs to not be broken because I secretly think that if they're 'proven' not to be broken on an internet forum that I profit? I hate to tell you but as far as I know there's not even a single person I game with on this forum, much less any gamer that has influence on what goes on IMC.

Well, I guess we might as well start posting pictures of dinosaurs.

Is the dragon sleeping

. . .

Is any of the dragon's treasure useful to the either side (I'd ask if treasure were there, but since there's adventurers involved I think it's safe to assume)
Is the dragon's treasure easily accessable to either side.

A dragon's CR is a dragon's CR regardless of whether it has 1 copper piece, a vorpal stick or all the treasure of the City of Brass.

 

[hong]

But is that how they're always, or even normally encountered?

Prove that this is not how they're normally encountered.

 

[Notmousse]

Last time I checked, almost all the dragons regardless of age or color, had a Dex of 10. That's an Init of +0, or +4 if they have Imp Init. Are you seriously saying that A) a conjurer with a Dex of 14 won't win initiative more often than not or B) said conjurer won't have ANY defensive spells up (like, say RESIST (dragon's breath weapon-flavored) ELEMENTS?

A Great Wyrm White Dragon has 13 feats to blow, casts as a sorcerer. Within 4 of those feats I could give him a +8 init (using LG open material). With but a fraction of his treasure a 21 Dex (that's another +5 init). With the other 9 feats he can take metabreath feats to cheese that out too.

'You don't need to know what bonus feat a human conjurer took'

But I do need to know the character's race, because that is now too a part of the equation. I'm sure in most of the games you're played in or GMed that showing a partial character sheet isn't going to cut it for long.

 

[Notmousse]

Prove that the details are relevant.

You're kidding right? Math without details is meaningless! If I said D=MC^2 with nothing else how is anyone to know I wasn't making a typo and meant something completely different?

Prove that this is relevant.

If the dragon gets a surprise round (or just initiative) all the orbs in the world aren't going to help dead mages.

 

[Deset Gled]

What? Ok, I'm rooting for orbs to not be broken because I secretly think that if they're 'proven' not to be broken on an internet forum that I profit?

Step 1: Control the minds of all peoples on the internets.

Step 2: ???

Step 3: Profit.

Care to enlighten the rest of us as to what step 2 is?

 

[Rystil Arden]

If the dragon gets a surprise round (or just initiative) all the orbs in the world aren't going to help dead mages.

Hong's point is that you're throwing in obfuscation that makes the entire exercise pointless. Remember my Orcslayer spell? If there was another version of that which was also level 1 and worked only on dragons, automatically destroying them with no defenses, it would be overpowered, right? But I can make the argument "The dragon will win surprise and kill them before they can go, so Dragonslayer spell is balanced" and this is a direct parallel to your argument. Arguing that an enemy with surprise can kill someone before they use Option X is irrelevant to arguing that Option X is not overpowered.