No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[shmoo2]

Good Morning.
I've added in the data from monsters other than dragons (dragons....dragons are a pain to enter, to say the least).

Nail,
Could you provide me with your updated data set?
I have an idea to use the data to compare orbs vs. evocations once again.

Thanks,
Nat

 

[IanB]

More touch AC wankery

I realize this thread is pretty much dead at this point but given that it was the thread that prompted me to do this little bit of "analysis" I thought I'd post it up.

I'm still trying to decide whether or not to allow the orb spells as-is in my game. To that end I decided to take a look at touch ACs for high level opponents (CR 15 and up.) I changed the rules a bit from Nail's version though:

- I'm excluding dragons, because we know they have crappy touch ACs anyway, but they're also spellcasters, and if I decide to allow orb spells, then it is easy enough to have the dragons take anti-orb spells into account in their spell selection.

- I'm excluding good aligned monsters, because my parties simply don't fight them very often at all.

- I'm including anti-orb abilities and SLAs that affect touch AC or add a miss chance into my review, as long as they're printed in the monster description.

So far I've only done this for the monsters in the SRD, as that's what I have access to at work, and I have more important things to do when I'm at home.

One thing I've learned from this is just how few high-CR monsters there are in the MM that aren't dragons!

CR 15

Inevitable, Marut - base touch AC 10, no relevant SLAs

Mummy Lord - base touch AC 11, shield of faith takes it to 14

CR 16

Devil, Horned - base touch AC 16, dispel good/chaos puts it at 20 vs those alignments

Stone Golem, Greater - base touch AC 6, no relevant SLAs

Nightshade, Nightwalker - base touch AC 10, haste puts it at 11, deeper darkness adds 20% miss chance

CR 17

Aboleth Mage - base touch AC 11, has multiple options for 20% or 50% miss chances due to spells (does it really need blur AND displacement AND greater invis?)

Demon, Marilith - base touch AC 13, unholy aura puts it at 17

Formian, Queen - base touch AC 9, shield of law puts it at 13

Frost Giant Jarl - base touch AC 10, no modifiers

CR 18

Nightshade, Nightcrawler - base touch AC 6, haste puts it at 7 (awesome), deeper darkness gives 20% miss chance

CR 19

No non-dragon monsters at CR 19 in the SRD (!).

CR 20

Demon, Balor - base touch AC 16, unholy aura puts it at 20

Devil, Pit Fiend - base touch AC 17, unholy aura puts it at 21

Tarrasque - base touch AC 5, but I would probably rule orbs are covered by the 'reflect' effect


Via this half-assed analysis, I think I'm going to allow them, pending an examination of the touch ACs in the higher ends of the adventure paths. Barring dragons, there's a pretty good mix of creatures they'll be good and bad against, and I didn't take into account factors like energy resistance when I was going through here.

 

[Diirk]

Via this half-assed analysis, I think I'm going to allow them, pending an examination of the touch ACs in the higher ends of the adventure paths. Barring dragons, there's a pretty good mix of creatures they'll be good and bad against, and I didn't take into account factors like energy resistance when I was going through here.

Eh? I count 3 things they're "bad" against (4, counting the aboleth mage which has horrible touch AC and may or may not get the benefit of its SLAs), the demons and devils. Now examine the SR and resistances of those demons and devils and explain to me how orbs aren't a good option compared to the alternatives ?

(admittedly the balor's SR is a bit on the low side, but he probably won't be failing too many saving throws either)

Keep in mind for CR 20, a touch AC of ~20 isn't really that bad; you get 10 of that from BAB alone, even as a wizard.

 

[IanB]

Eh? I count 3 things they're "bad" against (4, counting the aboleth mage which has horrible touch AC and may or may not get the benefit of its SLAs), the demons and devils. Now examine the SR and resistances of those demons and devils and explain to me how orbs aren't a good option compared to the alternatives ?

(admittedly the balor's SR is a bit on the low side, but he probably won't be failing too many saving throws either)

Keep in mind for CR 20, a touch AC of ~20 isn't really that bad; you get 10 of that from BAB alone, even as a wizard.

A touch AC of 20 really is pretty rough. I am not expecting my wizards to spend feats to get to precise shot, so it will be reasonably common for the wizard to be taking a -4 for shooting into melee against these opponents. Giving the wizard what is, in my opinion, a generous +15 touch attack at level 20, they are going to miss a balor in melee on 40% of orb attacks without even taking the possibility of cover into account. If the balor has cover as well it goes up to a 60% chance to miss.

What I *do* see most wizards in my games take is spell penetration and greater spell penetration. With a total level check of +24 against the SR 28 balor, overcoming SR is a much better bet. Against the SR 32 pit fiend, it is a similar chance of success to the orb (you need an 8 for SR vs. a 6 on your attack roll if you get the pit fiend out in the open with no cover or melee.) That seems fine to me, especially given the unlikeliness that I'm ever just going to toss an unsupported balor against a level 20 party.

Like I said, I'm not totally done with the analysis. In particular I want to look at what humanoid type opponents are going to be running for their touch ACs/miss chances/etc before I make the final call, but based on the SRD numbers, I think the orb spells are within reason (albeit certainly at the high end!)

Note that I've already said I'm banning the 'metamagic takes 1 less level' feat, which to me is a bigger problem.

 

[James McMurray]

If you take any PrCs for your wizard you're unlikely to get +10 from BAB alone. IMX most 20th level arcane casters have a +8 or +9 BAB from having 2-3 PrCs. Certainly you can build to compensate for it if that's your goal.

 

[IanB]

If you take any PrCs for your wizard you're unlikely to get +10 from BAB alone. IMX most 20th level arcane casters have a +8 or +9 BAB from having 2-3 PrCs. Certainly you can build to compensate for it if that's your goal.

IMC I use the fractional BAB rules, so that typically isn't a problem for characters.

 

[Diirk]

A touch AC of 20 really is pretty rough. I am not expecting my wizards to spend feats to get to precise shot, so it will be reasonably common for the wizard to be taking a -4 for shooting into melee against these opponents. Giving the wizard what is, in my opinion, a generous +15 touch attack at level 20, they are going to miss a balor in melee on 40% of orb attacks without even taking the possibility of cover into account. If the balor has cover as well it goes up to a 60% chance to miss.

What I *do* see most wizards in my games take is spell penetration and greater spell penetration. With a total level check of +24 against the SR 28 balor, overcoming SR is a much better bet. Against the SR 32 pit fiend, it is a similar chance of success to the orb (you need an 8 for SR vs. a 6 on your attack roll if you get the pit fiend out in the open with no cover or melee.) That seems fine to me, especially given the unlikeliness that I'm ever just going to toss an unsupported balor against a level 20 party.

You also didn't take into account damage lost from the monsters making their saving throws (which will be alot of the time). So what your suggesting is that for a wizard specialized for area effects (and similar; auto hit, but SR and presumably saves will apply) the orb isn't really a significantly worse option (and possibly a better option) against those opponents that you've designated as "bad orb targets".

Now look at those targets again, but imagine a wizard that doesn't totally neglect his ranged touch. Point Blank and Precise Shot are fairly staple for wizards in games I've played, as is 14 starting dex. Throw in a +4 dex item, +10 BAB (just multiclass at even levels and you don't even need fractional BAB), its not unreasonable to have a buff or 2 up such as heroism. Thats +16 already. If you were dedicated you could easily get more (+1 for within 30', +1 for small sized races, +1 for races with dex bonuses, +1 weapon focus, other buffing spells etc).

 

[James McMurray]

+10 BAB (just multiclass at even levels and you don't even need fractional BAB),

Huh? How does multiclassing at even levels change x + 0 to x + 1?

 

[Rystil Arden]

Huh? How does multiclassing at even levels change x + 0 to x + 1?

Multiclassing at even levels means that you never lose out on BAB. Imagine a Wizard10 who multiclassing to a PrC at level 10 (even level). He gets 5 from Wiz, 5 from PrC = 10. What if he starts at level 11 (odd level) he gets 5 from Wiz still and 4 from PrC, total 9.

 

[IanB]

You also didn't take into account damage lost from the monsters making their saving throws (which will be alot of the time). So what your suggesting is that for a wizard specialized for area effects (and similar; auto hit, but SR and presumably saves will apply) the orb isn't really a significantly worse option (and possibly a better option) against those opponents that you've designated as "bad orb targets".

Now look at those targets again, but imagine a wizard that doesn't totally neglect his ranged touch. Point Blank and Precise Shot are fairly staple for wizards in games I've played, as is 14 starting dex. Throw in a +4 dex item, +10 BAB (just multiclass at even levels and you don't even need fractional BAB), its not unreasonable to have a buff or 2 up such as heroism. Thats +16 already. If you were dedicated you could easily get more (+1 for within 30', +1 for small sized races, +1 for races with dex bonuses, +1 weapon focus, other buffing spells etc).

The point here is, what is staple for wizards with the players you play with is not directly relevant to what the consequences will be in my game. I am only trying to decide if it is safe for the spells to be allowed in my game. I provided my little extra bit of data merely to help other people come to whatever conclusion they feel is appropriate for their game.

I have never seen an arcane caster besides a warlock take precise shot in my game or any of the games I play in. Should my players start defying my expectations and building twinked out warmage orb-blasters, I will possibly have to revise my position on orb balance, but I am no longer trying to answer the question "are orbs broken" in a vacuum. That argument is pretty well played out. There are tons of pages of for/against for that in this thread. What I have moved on to is, having learned what I can from this discussion, are they too powerful to allow in my game? As other DMs may find my conclusions useful, I put them here.

Also you'll note that I ran my numbers with a +15. In my game, I would expect a 'normal' wizard build to be a little worse than that at his ranged touches. Probably in the +12 to +14 range at level 20.