D&D General Nobody likes an edition warrior.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Raith5

Adventurer
This. If you agree that system matters, then it's also true that edition matters (insofar as different D&D editions are different systems).

Yes, editions vary so significantly. I think the issue is that personal play styles get attached to these systems and people feel aggrieved when that playstyle is not "adequately" supported in the current system.

But the thing I find so funny about the edition wars are ones inside my own head and the unrealistic demands I sometimes have - hey I want a system with 4e's customization and combat options and 5e's speed of play.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
In all seriousness, there did use to be a fair amount of edition warring, and the even more exciting edition civil-warring, on this site.

Mods are more vigilant, but I think people also tired of it.

And 5E really is the most successful, so I don't think there is any point arguing about it.
Eh, most successful doesn’t mean best.

Case in point, 4e is clearly the best D&D, and while it was not actually the failure people claim, it did split the fan base so badly that Pathfinder was able to sometimes outsell it.

Meanwhile, 3/.5 is the worst TTRPG ever published. It’s just science! 😂
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Eh, most successful doesn’t mean best.

Case in point, 4e is clearly the best D&D, and while it was not actually the failure people claim, it did split the fan base so badly that Pathfinder was able to sometimes outsell it.

Meanwhile, 3/.5 is the worst TTRPG ever published. It’s just science! 😂

You are exactly right.

The world's an unfair place and head injuries can do funny things.
 

TheAlkaizer

Game Designer
I played three editions of D&D, 3.5, 4E and 5E. I've enjoyed and disliked all of them for different reasons.

My favorite is probably 4E. I had my best D&D moments as a DM in 4E. It was a brilliant edition that did many things right, but unfortunately did the wrong things wrong, and it cost them their core audience. I'm still disappointed that they entirely scrapped 4E instead of taking what was good about it. Ironically, many of my critics about 5E are things that 4E did pretty well.

5E is a very close second. It's elegant in many way. It's simple. It gets to the point. It's easy to get new people playing D&D and it does all the important things really well. But as years go, I'm not finding that it's aging quite well. The class/subclass paradigm doesn't translate to a good growth of new player options in my opinion. I also wish it had a little more crunch in certain places. The advantage/disadvantage mechanic is one of the genius element of 5E, but it lacks a little bit of granularity.

I have fond memories of 3.5. It affected me as a person and in many ways changed my life. I don't think I would be doing the job I'm doing if it wasn't for it. However, of the three editions, it is the only one I have absolutely no wish to play again. I like to dive in the books for nostalgia, but there's very little that 4E or 5E doesn't do better for me. And there's very little that I would want back for an hypothetical 6E.

I'm always sad when I see people bashing unequivocally an edition "4E was dogshit". It wasn't. It's a great game. You just didn't enjoy it at all, and that's alright.
 


Blue Orange

Gone to Texas
I feel like it's arguments about whether chocolate or vanilla ice cream are better. I mean, maybe you like vanilla and I like chocolate? We don't even have the same taste buds. Maybe you like lots of detailed rules for everything and that's why you play Rolemaster (or 3.5e), maybe I prefer to make rulings on the fly and that's why I like OSR. Is one better than the other?

I kind of feel like with 4e they made a tactical error and tried to copy World of Warcraft, when the point with tabletop RPGs is exactly that you can do things you can't do in World of Warcraft ("let's ignore the vampire and start a business in the small town making healing potions!"). But if you like 4e, well, that just means I disagree with you. That doesn't mean you're bad or stupid. Maybe you had a great group and you had a lot of fun and it worked really well for you.
 

The-Magic-Sword

Small Ball Archmage
I feel like it's arguments about whether chocolate or vanilla ice cream are better. I mean, maybe you like vanilla and I like chocolate? We don't even have the same taste buds. Maybe you like lots of detailed rules for everything and that's why you play Rolemaster (or 3.5e), maybe I prefer to make rulings on the fly and that's why I like OSR. Is one better than the other?

I kind of feel like with 4e they made a tactical error and tried to copy World of Warcraft, when the point with tabletop RPGs is exactly that you can do things you can't do in World of Warcraft ("let's ignore the vampire and start a business in the small town making healing potions!"). But if you like 4e, well, that just means I disagree with you. That doesn't mean you're bad or stupid. Maybe you had a great group and you had a lot of fun and it worked really well for you.
Notably, I did like 4e, and you've actually hit on part of what attracted me to tabletop games in the first place-- you can do things you can't do in World of Warcraft, but one thing that bugged me about 5e for instance, is that I felt like I was giving things up in the process. Its not about totally rejecting every element of the video game experience, its that I wanted something that emulated the elements of that experience I liked, but let me take it in whatever direction I wanted, let me design the details of that experience to focus on the things that interested me. Just because MMORPGs have deep, tactical, combat, and tabletops aren't limited by the constraints of MMORPGs, doesn't mean they should neglect that experience.

To me Pathfinder 2e is actually the first game I've played to surpass 4e, and its because it incorporates more simulationist systems and procedures on top of a similar tactical combat model. So these days, a lot of my brainpower is focused on big West Marches games in the classic DND vein of interchangeable groups exploring the same world, its the kind of exploration and social experience that video games don't really give me, with the fun battles that I like about video games. Tabletop Games have the power to deliver on the 'promise' of the back of the World of Warcraft box about expansive worlds, exploration, and endless adventure. I can do things the designers of that game wouldn't do, to make it a better experience. To me, it isn't about rejecting video games, its about surpassing them for myself and my group.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
Notably, I did like 4e, and you've actually hit on part of what attracted me to tabletop games in the first place-- you can do things you can't do in World of Warcraft, but one thing that bugged me about 5e for instance, is that I felt like I was giving things up in the process. Its not about totally rejecting every element of the video game experience, its that I wanted something that emulated the elements of that experience I liked, but let me take it in whatever direction I wanted, let me design the details of that experience to focus on the things that interested me. Just because MMORPGs have deep, tactical, combat, and tabletops aren't limited by the constraints of MMORPGs, doesn't mean they should neglect that experience.

To me Pathfinder 2e is actually the first game I've played to surpass 4e, and its because it incorporates more simulationist systems and procedures on top of a similar tactical combat model. So these days, a lot of my brainpower is focused on big West Marches games in the classic DND vein of interchangeable groups exploring the same world, its the kind of exploration and social experience that video games don't really give me, with the fun battles that I like about video games. Tabletop Games have the power to deliver on the 'promise' of the back of the World of Warcraft box about expansive worlds, exploration, and endless adventure. I can do things the designers of that game wouldn't do, to make it a better experience. To me, it isn't about rejecting video games, its about surpassing them for myself and my group.
The argument is generally that regular people with dice sitting around a table can’t compete with the processing power or speed of a computer, so it’s always a losing proposition to try. People can’t surpass computers in the numbers or intricate tactics department, so don’t. But we can do infinitely better (for now) in the imagination and flexibility department, so focus our time and energy there.
 

turnip_farmer

Adventurer
I haven't heard nor thought about "Aggravated Damage" in decades!

There will always be edition warriors, and the same arguments will repeat in different configurations unto eternity. I agree that a big part of the problem is that people will eternally conflate "my favorite" with "objectively the best."
Well, it helps to believe that your favourite is objectively the best.

I'm currently sat planning a new campaign, and I'm looking at this pile of editions, hacks, house rules, and even a bunch of percentile systems; and I am crippled with paralysis as to what the hell we're going to play. If I was a paladin of the One True Edition, I'd never face this problem.
 

The-Magic-Sword

Small Ball Archmage
The argument is generally that regular people with dice sitting around a table can’t compete with the processing power or speed of a computer, so it’s always a losing proposition to try. People can’t surpass computers in the numbers or intricate tactics department, so don’t. But we can do infinitely better (for now) in the imagination and flexibility department, so focus our time and energy there.
Honestly, speaking from experience, the complexity of the numbers in most video games don't really contribute that positively to the experience, the benefits are very minor, and there are usually drawbacks. For instance, most users find the effect of individual stats in World of Warcraft to be entirely obscure, to the point where they keep simplifying the game to the point where regardless of stats, the highest ilvl on a usable piece of gear is reliably the best, without meaningful variation at the same ilvl. Then people get annoyed there's no system mastery, so they start making secondary stats more important, but then people end up avoiding what seem like they should be upgrades because that specific piece has the wrong configuration of secondary stats, which draws more complaints and causes them to streamline it again. They removed the complex talent trees that were intended to mirror feats in tabletop roleplaying games and made them way more surface level, with maybe only one or two doing anything meaningful, but the effect is still relatively simple. Reducing the math complexity to a degree similar to that employed by Tabletop Games would probably make most video games way more accessible.

Heck, Pathfinder 2e and DND 5e currently both have much better variation in character building, and more viable playstyles, and more complex character building and customization than World of Warcraft does. Using simple to grok math makes it easy for designers to create multiple options that have comparable output while retaining tactical asymmetry, and the benefits of it being text on a page makes it trivial to produce way more of those options, and make them more easily interchanged by the user to create their very own build. Which incidentally was true of 4e as well, choosing powers the way you did then, that form your core set of abilities is not a thing in MMORPGs, they're just given to you.

My competitive pokemon teams aren't especially more complex than my DND and Pathfinder characters are, for point of reference, the damage calculations are harder to execute by hand, but it could be simplified with no meaningful reduction in the quality of the game, in fact I've homebrewed a tabletop system for distilling a pokemon's actual ingame base stats into a tabletop friendly format that uses a different damage formula, but it still feels like Pokemon.

This doesn't apply to physics calculations and such, but a lot of games don't really use those in the first place, especially not the kinds of games I want Tabletop Games to be able to surpass in terms of being able to support a wider, more interesting experience. Divinity Original Sin and other video games like it basically run off of Tabletop Systems or systems very much like them to begin with, and they're some of the more tactically interesting RPGs that exist.
 
Last edited:

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top