Why is a 1st lvl wizard in a 1st lvl party dead weight? Their BAB is only slightly worst then that of the warriors and the same as that of rogues and clerics. They can also fight with light crossbows. So except for their hit points they are just as bad in combat as for instance clerics (who face the same attribute problems as wizards, except wisdom replaces intelligence). It is in the lower side of mid-levels that you will experience the difficulties and it has got only partially to do with their hit points. An other part is there terrible BAB.
Nobody will play a wizard or sorcerer!
Madfox said:
A 1st level rogue has tons of skill points, and can do useful stuff like picking locks or disabling traps (albeit only easy ones). A 1st level cleric can act as a (limited) party medic and a backup fighter (heavy armour proficiency and a mace are useful in a pinch). A 1st level wizard can't do either of these, and has a crappy AC to boot. They can improve the AC via shield and/or mage armour, but that's at least 1 out of 2 spell slots used purely for self-preservation. Hence a 1st level wizard is pretty much baggage -- a rogue can do a better job as a missile fighter (if only because of higher Dex), and a cleric has more survivability.
no I agree- even with a constitution bonus, that d4 HPs is pretty brutal- especially when combined with their low AC and BAB.
They have a few spells, but if the fighter gets battered around, the cleric can make him good as new, and keep on going. If the Mage spends his spells, he's pretty much through for the day.
Let alone the fact that a 1st level fighter can wreck a 3rd or 4th level mage in 1 or 2 rounds. Realistic maybe, if the mage doesn't have a nasty spell prepared, but pretty brutal if you are the mage. Particularly if the mage doesn't have the max 12 or 16 HPs by those levels.
They have a few spells, but if the fighter gets battered around, the cleric can make him good as new, and keep on going. If the Mage spends his spells, he's pretty much through for the day.
Let alone the fact that a 1st level fighter can wreck a 3rd or 4th level mage in 1 or 2 rounds. Realistic maybe, if the mage doesn't have a nasty spell prepared, but pretty brutal if you are the mage. Particularly if the mage doesn't have the max 12 or 16 HPs by those levels.
EOL
First Post
On the sorcerer I would agree that at 1st level (especially if they use all their spells for self-preservation) they are pretty much dead weight. The Wizard however ought to be able to memorize sleep which can mean the difference between victory and defeat in a lot of low-level encounters
Some of you say that as a DM, you should take it easy on the low-level mages and whatnot. Or have them play cowards, or that fighters should be sure to guard them...
What do you do if the DM plays that most humanoid monsters are aware of how much punch a mage can do, and says that the monsters would do everything in their power to get the mage first.
"The party arrives face to face with a bunch of archers- 'Get the mage before he can put us to sleep!' one yells" My mage ended up with enough feathers in him to forgo the flight spell.
What do you do if the DM plays that most humanoid monsters are aware of how much punch a mage can do, and says that the monsters would do everything in their power to get the mage first.
"The party arrives face to face with a bunch of archers- 'Get the mage before he can put us to sleep!' one yells" My mage ended up with enough feathers in him to forgo the flight spell.
Shin Okada
Explorer
Interesting. Every adventuring party around me have at least one each of single class Wizard/Sorcerer and single class Cleric. Most of those players are playing RPGs for years and have some experience of playing older DnDs. So they know how important to have them.
Regarding the survivability of low-level arcane casters, I have two advice for those players.
1st, do not play Elven Wizards. Wizard is their favored class, but it does not mean that they are good as a single-class wizard. Try Dwarf or Gnome. Having high Constitution score is very important for those arcane casters. Or, try Halfling. They do not have Con penalty as Elves do, and Halflings have the best AC due to it's size and high Dexterity score.
2nd, in DnD, a party should fight as a team or they cannot do things well. So other members of the party should try to protect party Wizard (or Sorcerer) from melee attacks. I wonder why 8 men party can't do this.
Regarding Clerics, well, if your party is big enough, try to have more than 2 single class Clerics. Remember good clerics or neutral clerics of good deity can turn any of their spells (except for those in domain slots) into cure spells. So in 3e, they do not need to fill all their spell slots with cure spells. Now they do not need to act as pure medic and can have a lot of opportunities to cast other spells.
Regarding the survivability of low-level arcane casters, I have two advice for those players.
1st, do not play Elven Wizards. Wizard is their favored class, but it does not mean that they are good as a single-class wizard. Try Dwarf or Gnome. Having high Constitution score is very important for those arcane casters. Or, try Halfling. They do not have Con penalty as Elves do, and Halflings have the best AC due to it's size and high Dexterity score.
2nd, in DnD, a party should fight as a team or they cannot do things well. So other members of the party should try to protect party Wizard (or Sorcerer) from melee attacks. I wonder why 8 men party can't do this.
Regarding Clerics, well, if your party is big enough, try to have more than 2 single class Clerics. Remember good clerics or neutral clerics of good deity can turn any of their spells (except for those in domain slots) into cure spells. So in 3e, they do not need to fill all their spell slots with cure spells. Now they do not need to act as pure medic and can have a lot of opportunities to cast other spells.
Deadguy
First Post
Who IS the Wizard?
I guess then it comes down to examining the game you play, Bystander. whilst it might be true that the Wizard is the most dangerous element in a party, that requires discipline to ignore the 300 pounds of metal-armoured flesh about to pound you into oblivion. If every tribe of goblins applies military tactics to every combat then of course the Wizard seems like dead meat long before he even has a sniff of 2nd level! Heck, you've even pointed out yourself that the low-level Wizard soon 'wears out' in terms of spells; he may not be your biggest worry, after all!
I will add to that that the Wizard doesn't have to be the obvious spellcaster. At first level he has what? A spell component pouch and very little armour? The rogues might well look the same. In other words they might not even be able to spot the Wizard amidst the rag-tag bunch that is a party of PCs! He's in fact an archer, with a crossbow, or maybe he's at the back helping with the fallen.
I guess I am saying that cutting them some slack actually makes a lot of sense when they are lower level, because they don't necessarily look like a 'classic' wizard (iconics excepted, of course!). The alternative is, as you have described, a dearth of people willing to play a Wizard or Sorcerer - they might just as well be playing characters who run around naked with targets painted over their hearts, if they are going to be specifically threatened from day 1!
I guess then it comes down to examining the game you play, Bystander. whilst it might be true that the Wizard is the most dangerous element in a party, that requires discipline to ignore the 300 pounds of metal-armoured flesh about to pound you into oblivion. If every tribe of goblins applies military tactics to every combat then of course the Wizard seems like dead meat long before he even has a sniff of 2nd level! Heck, you've even pointed out yourself that the low-level Wizard soon 'wears out' in terms of spells; he may not be your biggest worry, after all!
I will add to that that the Wizard doesn't have to be the obvious spellcaster. At first level he has what? A spell component pouch and very little armour? The rogues might well look the same. In other words they might not even be able to spot the Wizard amidst the rag-tag bunch that is a party of PCs! He's in fact an archer, with a crossbow, or maybe he's at the back helping with the fallen.
I guess I am saying that cutting them some slack actually makes a lot of sense when they are lower level, because they don't necessarily look like a 'classic' wizard (iconics excepted, of course!). The alternative is, as you have described, a dearth of people willing to play a Wizard or Sorcerer - they might just as well be playing characters who run around naked with targets painted over their hearts, if they are going to be specifically threatened from day 1!
Bronn Spellforger
First Post
Wizards rock in 3E.
At 1st level, as a dwarven wizard, I had a high con bonus, plus I took Toughness as a feat (+3 HP). I had more HP than our fighter! I beefed up on Mage Armor and/or Shield .. fired a MM every now and then (Ray of Frost is a nice little cantrip for 1st level), but mostly spent time in the back firing my crossbow. Really, I wasn't much worse than a 1st level thief.
And if you can make it up to 5th level, you're the most powerful member of the party.
But as to the original question ... what to do if there are no mages or clerics in the party. Well, that's what NPCs are for!
At 1st level, as a dwarven wizard, I had a high con bonus, plus I took Toughness as a feat (+3 HP). I had more HP than our fighter! I beefed up on Mage Armor and/or Shield .. fired a MM every now and then (Ray of Frost is a nice little cantrip for 1st level), but mostly spent time in the back firing my crossbow. Really, I wasn't much worse than a 1st level thief.
And if you can make it up to 5th level, you're the most powerful member of the party.
But as to the original question ... what to do if there are no mages or clerics in the party. Well, that's what NPCs are for!
Hmm, my first 3rd Ed character was a wizard and I didn' have any problems. Of course I was a dwarf and that 16 CON really helped (7 hp at first level is as good as most rogues and bards). The key to my success was definitely taking advantage of my Scribe Scroll ability. A first level spell costs very little to create and if you are using them to save the party (like sleep) then ask the party to fund a few of them if you need to.
If you want to diguise yourself, wear some leather armor and carry your crossbow readied. An armor check penalty of zero times two means nothing, and a 10% failure chance ain't that bad. A shot at doing d8 damage each round is better than most of your low level spells, and what kobold is going to think a guy in leather armor, with a crossbow, is a wizard?
If you want to diguise yourself, wear some leather armor and carry your crossbow readied. An armor check penalty of zero times two means nothing, and a 10% failure chance ain't that bad. A shot at doing d8 damage each round is better than most of your low level spells, and what kobold is going to think a guy in leather armor, with a crossbow, is a wizard?
SpikeyFreak
First Post
About 33% of the characters that I have seen played since 3E came out have been clerics.hong said:
And they kicked a**.
--Vulgar Spikey
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